U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-19-2009, 06:35 AM
 
13,138 posts, read 37,911,353 times
Reputation: 12207

Advertisements

If memory serves me correct from my HS History days was that the Czechs actually had an standing army that wasn't such a pushover as the Poles were and while i still don't understand all the politics inside Czechoslovakia and from the other major Euro countries attitutde towards that country back then however my question is that should they have never allowed the Munich Agreement to go thru and fought Germany if they had invaded in 1938?

Any thoughts ?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-19-2009, 07:03 AM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
36,499 posts, read 47,069,835 times
Reputation: 47407
The Czechs were abandoned by the British and French. Yes their army was large and well-trained but don't forget that Hitler had a propaganda machine touting the invincibilty of the Wehrmacht. The battle was over before it began. Sun Tzu would have approved.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 08:47 AM
 
11,050 posts, read 10,625,156 times
Reputation: 35458
If there had been no "Munich" and Prime Minister Chamberlain of Britain and Premier Daladier of France had not conceded the Sudetenland to Hitler without firing a shot, World War II might have taken a much different course and been over much more quickly.

The Czech Army was well-armed with perhaps a million soldiers and modern equipment. If Britain and France had made their stand than, instead of in 1939 over Poland, they would have been in an infinitely better position to resist Hitler. If you look at map, you can understand the threat that an armed Czechoslovakia posed to Germany. Its boundary its sort of like a dagger aimed at the heart or belly of Germany. Germany would have had to have defeated the Czech Army before turning its attentions to France or any other country.

Of course, much of the problem with the "what ifs" of history is that they don't take into account why such doings were not possible, or didn't occur. The reality is that both France and Britain were sick at the very notion of fighting another war. The Sudentenland Crisis occurred less than twenty years after the Armistice ending World War I. World War I had been a devastating event for both Britain and France and had killed millions of their citizens. All the countries of the world were in the midst of a painful worldwide economic Depression at the time this was occurring. British and French citizens had no desire whatsoever to fight another war and refused to do so literally until they had no other choice available. When Chamberlain returned from Munich (surrendering the Sudentenland to Germany by Treaty) he was hailed as a hero by many British citizens. Only a few people, like Winston Churchill, were able to see through Hitler and realize that war was inevitable.

In the end, virtually all historians realized that the Munich Treaty was a huge mistake. If France and Britain had made their stand in 1938, they would have had a good ally in Czechoslovakia. Hitler would have had one less year to complete rearming Germany. Hitler could have been forced to might on several fronts at the same time. Its doubtful Hitler could have defeated France the way he did in six weeks in June of 1940. There'd have been no need for an invasion of Europe because the allied armies would never have been driven out of Europe in the first place.

The only things that could be cited as "positive" about the Munich Treaty are these: 1. It also gave Britain another year to prepare for war. 2. It finally unmasked Hitler. After he seized the rest of Czechoslovakia and invaded Poland there could be no doubt whatsoever about his intentions. The term "Munich" today is now thought of as a synonym for a "sell out" or a "give-away".
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 01:41 PM
 
900 posts, read 585,778 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
If there had been no "Munich" and Prime Minister Chamberlain of Britain and Premier Daladier of France had not conceded the Sudetenland to Hitler without firing a shot, World War II might have taken a much different course and been over much more quickly.

The Czech Army was well-armed with perhaps a million soldiers and modern equipment. If Britain and France had made their stand than, instead of in 1939 over Poland, they would have been in an infinitely better position to resist Hitler. If you look at map, you can understand the threat that an armed Czechoslovakia posed to Germany. Its boundary its sort of like a dagger aimed at the heart or belly of Germany. Germany would have had to have defeated the Czech Army before turning its attentions to France or any other country.

Of course, much of the problem with the "what ifs" of history is that they don't take into account why such doings were not possible, or didn't occur. The reality is that both France and Britain were sick at the very notion of fighting another war. The Sudentenland Crisis occurred less than twenty years after the Armistice ending World War I. World War I had been a devastating event for both Britain and France and had killed millions of their citizens. All the countries of the world were in the midst of a painful worldwide economic Depression at the time this was occurring. British and French citizens had no desire whatsoever to fight another war and refused to do so literally until they had no other choice available. When Chamberlain returned from Munich (surrendering the Sudentenland to Germany by Treaty) he was hailed as a hero by many British citizens. Only a few people, like Winston Churchill, were able to see through Hitler and realize that war was inevitable.

In the end, virtually all historians realized that the Munich Treaty was a huge mistake. If France and Britain had made their stand in 1938, they would have had a good ally in Czechoslovakia. Hitler would have had one less year to complete rearming Germany. Hitler could have been forced to might on several fronts at the same time. Its doubtful Hitler could have defeated France the way he did in six weeks in June of 1940. There'd have been no need for an invasion of Europe because the allied armies would never have been driven out of Europe in the first place.

The only things that could be cited as "positive" about the Munich Treaty are these: 1. It also gave Britain another year to prepare for war. 2. It finally unmasked Hitler. After he seized the rest of Czechoslovakia and invaded Poland there could be no doubt whatsoever about his intentions. The term "Munich" today is now thought of as a synonym for a "sell out" or a "give-away".

Except if Britain had made their stand in 1938, they would have had no air force capable of matching the Luftwaffe. That extra year bought the Brits the time they needed for the Spitfire fighters to come on line and be ready for the Battle of Britain.

Without the Spitfires to match the ME-109's, the Battle of Britain would have been lost.

As it was, it was pretty close.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 13,024,525 times
Reputation: 10088
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
If memory serves me correct from my HS History days was that the Czechs actually had an standing army that wasn't such a pushover as the Poles were and while i still don't understand all the politics inside Czechoslovakia and from the other major Euro countries attitutde towards that country back then however my question is that should they have never allowed the Munich Agreement to go thru and fought Germany if they had invaded in 1938?

Any thoughts ?
For one thing, the Poles weren't a pushover. They were outnumbered and outgunned, but made up for equipment and tactical deficiencies with great valor and determination. They were in a terrible operational position with fewer natural bastions than the Czechs had, although Adolf's absorption of Austria seriously weakened the Czech situation.

The betrayal of Czechoslovakia resounds as one of history's most sordid moments. If only the French had a leader who would say to Chamberlain: "Our allies, the Czechs, are menaced. We have advised them to mobilize and send their troops to forward defensive positions. If they are attacked, we march. Do you, our allies, march with us? A simple yes or no will suffice. The time for equivocation is past." And they would have gotten: "Well, come now, old chap, surely we must discuss this...", and they should have answered: "Non. Discuss nothing. Will you, our allies, march with us? This is the crisis of Western democracy, round two; round one, in Spain, is already winding down and we have lost it. Decidez." Obviously, I speak with full hindsight, but in that hindsight, oh, how different things might have been. Because the German army of the time could not have taken down Czechoslovakia, France and Britain at the same time. Hitler would have been deposed, probably assassinated, and uncountable horrors likely averted.

Poland was nearly as great a betrayal. The Allies declared war and then did almost nothing warlike, certainly not the sort of assault that would have drawn off German troops from the Vistula. Again, with full hindsight, it's no wonder that later some Czechs and Poles were willing to work with the USSR after the way France and Britain handled themselves. And the United States, self-described flagship of democracy? Actively disinterested. If I had been a young person of those times, I'd probably have decided that the West was a broken reed and made my peace with the system that did the most to consume and destroy the majority of the German military and reconquer the bulk of German conquests, for all its glaring faults.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Airstrip 1, Oceania
1,017 posts, read 2,714,165 times
Reputation: 1156
It's remarkable that the Czechs caved in to Hitler in 1938 - they had a series of forts along their border that was second only to the Maginot line. They could have probably held off the German army all by themselves. I guess it was the Air Force they were afraid of - people in those days assumed that a future war would involve massive aerial gas attacks that would decimate whole populations. Why didn't Britain and France stand up for the Czechs ? My guess is that they never really regarded Czechoslovakia as a proper country - 20 years previously it didn't exist. The borders of Europe were fluid and shifted around from one century to the next with whole countries appearing and disappearing from the map so why should they spill their blood to prevent another re-arrangement ? A good book on this era is "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer - a US correspondant based in Berlin during the 30s.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,464,698 times
Reputation: 36331
In the long run, what difference would it have made if they had resisted?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 03:47 PM
 
594 posts, read 1,663,811 times
Reputation: 754
Czechoslovakia represented the fall of the only parliamentary democracy in Eastern Europe at the time. There were 3-1/2 million Germans in Czechoslovakia, and many of them enthusiastically welcomed the German army's arrival. It was a winning situation for Hitler because it swelled his war-making capability with the resources of the famed Skoda works. Many Czech tanks and guns were used by the German army. The easy takeover of Czechoslovakia against the advice of his military advisers and the weak response of the western powers must have emboldened Hitler beyond his wildest dreams.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 05:19 PM
 
1,308 posts, read 2,642,635 times
Reputation: 635
Given what we know now the answer is that they would have done better to resist. The german army, its now known, was in no condition to over run Czechoslavakia in 38. Indeed its much vaunted tanks largely broke down when they later over ran the rump state - without any resistance at all. The german army gained vast material and production capacity by the invasion (in Russia in 1941 something like a fourth of the German vehicles had come from Czechoslavakia). Its not clear they could have penetrated the fortified belts protecting the czech state and russians offered to support the allies in the war, something they would not do in Poland in 39.

But at the time the weakenesses of the German army were not known, nor was it known that they would violate their agreement to only take the Sudentenland. Three factors were critical in Munich, the war weariness of the the British and French publics, a lack of trust of Russia by the West (who feared Stalin nearly as much as Hitler), and conflicts inside Czechoslavakia between national minorities that seriously weakened the ability of the state to resist external pressure.

German generals planned to overthrow Hitler if he declared war in 38 - a war they believed they could not win. After the allies caved in most abandoned opposition to him until 1943.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2009, 05:34 PM
 
1,461 posts, read 1,368,732 times
Reputation: 790
Hardly possible when a good percentage of their population was Sudentenland Germans. Only the USSR gave any hints of help and that fell through.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:03 AM.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top