Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The numbers presented by NJGOAT show that the Soviets out-produced the Germans in 1940- the year before the war broke out. When war broke out in 1941, Soviet output declined sharply for obvious reasons. They suffered huge losses and much territory. The Soviets still managed to move much of their industry behind the Urals and out of reach of the Luftwaffe which allowed them to continue to produce. In terms of producing the things that mattered to win the war- tanks, artillery, aircraft- the Soviets drastically out-produced the Germans by 3-4X.
You keep arguing this that the Germans had to fight a two front war. It was not a two-front war from 1941-1943. At that time, no western Allied power was fighting the Germans on European soil. At least 75% of German troops were fighting on the Eastern front against the Soviets. 25% of German forces were used elsewhere in Europe or kept in reserve. If you call that a two-front war, then I suppose the Soviets were fighting a two-front war as well because they had to keep 1 million troops in the Far East to guard against a Japanese invasion. The Germans also had the assistance of the Italians, Romanians, Fins, Austrians, and a number of other troop contingents during the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Axis had numerical superiority, yet they still lost. The Soviets were all alone and had nobody to assist them.
Outside of naval warfare, the Western Allies were not a major factor for Germany from 1941-1942. British fighting against Germans and Italians was limited to Africa and parts of the Middle East. The United States was preoccupied with the Japanese and offered limited troops to the African campaign. The Allied bombing campaigns did not begin until 1944 and had minimal impact on German industrial output. The war did not become a two-front war for Germany really until D-Day in 1944. The 1943 invasion of Italy was really an Italian responsibility until 1944 when Germany took over.
The Germans invaded & took two-thirds of Italy with collaborist in 1943. Plus, they wouldn't have gone half as far as they did without the RSI
Your opinion is wrong. Soldiers were trained in the back. They received all necessary knowledge. Time of training depended on the status. For the infantryman it was smaller time. Training of the pilot of the fighter was 3 months and more. Often them didn't allow in fight. They flied in the back. Got experience. Having got experience they could be allowed in real fight. training of the pilot of a bomber took 2-1,5 years. Pilots arrived in 1942 could fly to army not earlier than 1943.
The Soviet armies sustained big losses. The reason of it in the following situation-The Soviet armies attacked a lot of time. Attacking have more killed and wounded. Defending lose smaller number of soldiers.
I have read how the Soviets mobilized a few million troops in just a few weeks so I cant see how they could have had much training. Unless these were like reserve troops which had already had some training ? I assumed by the way I read it these were not reservest troops. Ron
I have read how the Soviets mobilized a few million troops in just a few weeks so I cant see how they could have had much training. Unless these were like reserve troops which had already had some training ? I assumed by the way I read it these were not reservest troops. Ron
Service in the Soviet Armed forces was compulsory so it is a bit of a misnomer when people refer to the mobilization as a draft per se. It might be more correct to simply refer to it as a call up of all those who reached the age for military service (who were on there way regardless of the situation) and all those who had already served their three year obligation. In effect, the entire male (perhaps even female) population of the Soviet Union was a reservist.
I have read how the Soviets mobilized a few million troops in just a few weeks so I cant see how they could have had much training. Unless these were like reserve troops which had already had some training ? I assumed by the way I read it these were not reservest troops. Ron
Like ovcatto said, pretty much every make in the Soviet Union was a part of the military in some capacity at some point in their lives. The first conscription law went into effect in 1925 and worked as follows:
All men beginning at the age of 21 would enter military service. This service took on one of two forms:
If drafted into a "cadre" (regular) unit the service term would be 2-4 years.
If drafted into a "territorial" unit the term of service would be a full year initially and then 1 month per year for the next 4 years.
In 1936 the military shifted to a "full-cadre" structure and eliminated the territorial units (now everyone served 2-4 years as needed). In 1939 they then lowered the conscription age to 19 which provided a "bumper crop" when they could take everyone aged 19-21 in that year. You can see how they were able to so rapidly grow the size of the army beginning in 1938 by manipualting the length of service and ages.
If taken as a whole from 1925 to 1941 there was 16 years of required military service for all men. That would mean that virtually every male between 19 and ~38 years old in the entire Soviet Union had some degree of military training. Anyone older than that would have also had military experience given the size of the Red Army during the Revolution and later wars of the 1920's. In reality nearly every male Soviet citizen from 19 to around 50 or so had military experience.
When the war broke out with Germany the conscription age was immediately amended to apply to all men between 18 and 51. Since every male was already registred with the local military board, it made the call-up process fairly efficient. The call-ups only required brief refreshers and equipping before they could be used.
In practice this was very similar to the "Landwehr" system as pioneered by Prussia in the 1800's.
Service in the Soviet Armed forces was compulsory so it is a bit of a misnomer when people refer to the mobilization as a draft per se. It might be more correct to simply refer to it as a call up of all those who reached the age for military service (who were on there way regardless of the situation) and all those who had already served their three year obligation. In effect, the entire male (perhaps even female) population of the Soviet Union was a reservist.
No, not female population. Someone had to stay behind, raise the children and work at the factories.
Since Russia went through so many wars and men were so often gone to front/wounded/killed, women were shouldering those responsibilities. There was no such option as men staying behind and raising children and women going to front. It would have been considered unacceptable in Russian culture.
Like ovcatto said, pretty much every make in the Soviet Union was a part of the military in some capacity at some point in their lives. The first conscription law went into effect in 1925 and worked as follows:
All men beginning at the age of 21 would enter military service. This service took on one of two forms:
If drafted into a "cadre" (regular) unit the service term would be 2-4 years.
If drafted into a "territorial" unit the term of service would be a full year initially and then 1 month per year for the next 4 years.
In 1936 the military shifted to a "full-cadre" structure and eliminated the territorial units (now everyone served 2-4 years as needed). In 1939 they then lowered the conscription age to 19 which provided a "bumper crop" when they could take everyone aged 19-21 in that year. You can see how they were able to so rapidly grow the size of the army beginning in 1938 by manipualting the length of service and ages.
If taken as a whole from 1925 to 1941 there was 16 years of required military service for all men. That would mean that virtually every male between 19 and ~38 years old in the entire Soviet Union had some degree of military training. Anyone older than that would have also had military experience given the size of the Red Army during the Revolution and later wars of the 1920's. In reality nearly every male Soviet citizen from 19 to around 50 or so had military experience.
When the war broke out with Germany the conscription age was immediately amended to apply to all men between 18 and 51. Since every male was already registred with the local military board, it made the call-up process fairly efficient. The call-ups only required brief refreshers and equipping before they could be used.
In practice this was very similar to the "Landwehr" system as pioneered by Prussia in the 1800's.
You need to add volunteers into this equation as well.
University students were not required to go to front, so many of them went to front as volunteers. So did the older men.
I'm a fan of John Mosier, but his stats in Deathride cannot be accurate. He claims 27 million dead Soviet soldiers. That's soldiers, not civilians, and it's dead, not casualties. Those numbers won't work.
A general rule of thumb is that a modern nation can field an army of about 10% of its population. Population of the USSR in 1939 was 170 million, meaning an army of about 17 million (and that's consistent with most estimates of the largest size of the Red Army, which range from 13 to 20 million). Statistical data published by the League of Nations showed that in 1939 there were substantially fewer males than females in the USSR, probably as a result of the terror. There were about 41 million males of military age, 15 - 49. Most countries classify about 40% of their males as fit for service, but even if we say that in the emergency 50% of males in the USSR could serve, that's only about 21 million males. Each year some 7 or 8 million would join the group of males of military age, while another 5 or so million would age out, meaning that from mid-1940 to mid-1945, you might add as many as 18 million males, some 9 million of whom were fit to serve.
This gives you a total manpower pool for the entire war of about 30 million.
Another rule of thumb is that there are 2 soldiers wounded for every 1 killed. This would mean that the USSR suffered 81 million casualties, 27 million dead (per Mosier) and 54 million wounded. Even if you assume that the Germans were so good and the Russians so bad that there was 1 killed for every 1 wounded, you still get casualties of 54 million. That's out of a total manpower pool of 30 million. It just doesn't add up. It would mean that all but 3 million soldiers were KIA, and those 3 million were each wounded 9 times (to get to 27 million wounded).
I'm a fan of John Mosier, but his stats in Deathride cannot be accurate. He claims 27 million dead Soviet soldiers. That's soldiers, not civilians, and it's dead, not casualties. Those numbers won't work.
A general rule of thumb is that a modern nation can field an army of about 10% of its population. Population of the USSR in 1939 was 170 million, meaning an army of about 17 million (and that's consistent with most estimates of the largest size of the Red Army, which range from 13 to 20 million). Statistical data published by the League of Nations showed that in 1939 there were substantially fewer males than females in the USSR, probably as a result of the terror. There were about 41 million males of military age, 15 - 49. Most countries classify about 40% of their males as fit for service, but even if we say that in the emergency 50% of males in the USSR could serve, that's only about 21 million males. Each year some 7 or 8 million would join the group of males of military age, while another 5 or so million would age out, meaning that from mid-1940 to mid-1945, you might add as many as 18 million males, some 9 million of whom were fit to serve.
This gives you a total manpower pool for the entire war of about 30 million.
Another rule of thumb is that there are 2 soldiers wounded for every 1 killed. This would mean that the USSR suffered 81 million casualties, 27 million dead (per Mosier) and 54 million wounded. Even if you assume that the Germans were so good and the Russians so bad that there was 1 killed for every 1 wounded, you still get casualties of 54 million. That's out of a total manpower pool of 30 million. It just doesn't add up. It would mean that all but 3 million soldiers were KIA, and those 3 million were each wounded 9 times (to get to 27 million wounded).
The rule of thumb that 10% of a country's population can be mobilized in time of war is just that: a rule of thumb. A country can sustain opperations, supply its troops, ect. with 10% of its population in military service. But when the enemy is at the gates, much of your country has been overrun, and your continued existance is in very serious doubt some very extreme measures are resorted to and 100% of your population is in the army.
The rule of thumb that two are wounded for every one killed is only another rule of thumb that only holds under normal conditions but can breakdown when conditions are other than normal. For instance, if medical care is inadaquate or unavailable a lot of the wounded will die. Disease is another great killer. Until recent decades more men died of disease than of combat. The chief factor in disease was a lack of sanitation. The Russian peasants were in the habit of going to the bathroom whenever they felt like it and wherever they happenned to be. Since that was generally out in the field it was no problem. But when you've got several thousand men all in one place and they're crapping wherever they happen to be disease is bound to be rampant. Given the desperate situation the Russians were in the emphasis was on giving them guns and getting them to the front, not telling them how to go to the bathroom. Also, a very large number of Russian soldiers were taken prisoner and most either died in captivity or joined the German Army and were executed when the Russians got them back. And then there were the tank riders. The Russians needed tanks. But tanks need infantry and the tanks traveled faster than the soldiers could walk and the Russians didn't have enough trucks. The solution was to weld handholds on the tanks and the soldiers climbed up and hung on. These tank riders had no way to take cover from the heavey weapony used against tanks. Finally, the Russians were inclined to consider a lot of civilians as military, given the situation they were in.
We should thank the Soviet Union for eliminating most of the Nazi forces in WWII. Without their heavy fighting and sacrifices, who knows how WWII would have turned out? Hope the 27 million brave men and women rested in peace.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Deathride is preposterous
