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Old 08-31-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,578 posts, read 17,298,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus Acta Probat View Post
Was that the same battle that caused Octavian to awaken from time to time and cry for his legions to be returned?
It was indeed. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) was one of the greatest of emperors, and that particular event evidently haunted him.

Interested in the emperors?
Check out the old series, I Claudius. I got it from Amazon and I loved it. As far as I can tell (I am not a real historian) it followed what is known very closely.
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:58 AM
 
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[quote=travric;31197191]You know when you say that I think of the description in 'Neptune's Inferno' of the cruiser night action Nov 12-13 1942 off Guadalcanal. It was there that Admiral Callaghan with Task Force 57.4 met Rear Admiral Abe in a terrible battle. Both forces came at each other in line and were shooting at each other practically at point blank range. It was termed a blind, head-on collision in the dark. Guns were at the horizontal and shells were ripping through steel and hulls. At times ships did not even know who they were firing at in the din. Callaghan lost his life as well as most of his senior staff in the battle. It was brutal action. I guess if you think about most naval action is brutal under any circumstances.

There was another Rear Admiral killed in that battle Norman Scott aboard the Atlanta .He won a night engagement against the Japanese in October coming through The Slot .Callaghan was senior to Scott so he was in command in that ill fated mission.
My uncle was in that battle...
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:18 AM
 
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I can't remember the book but the night Callaghan and Scott were killed in action a tincan sailor account of what happened when they abandoned ship was horrible.First he came to the aid of a fellow sailor trapped in his 5 inch gun turrent whose skin was beginning to sizzle like hamburger because of the intense fire below .With help from another sailor they freed the man and jumped overboard only to be sucked under from their ship sinking...they pop up only to be nearly run over by a fleeing destroyer...if that wasn't bad enough their ship had sunk to a depth that her depth charges started to go off beneath them!
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Most common soldiers back then properly didn't warrant a proper burial. Life was cheap.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
There was another Rear Admiral killed in that battle Norman Scott aboard the Atlanta .He won a night engagement against the Japanese in October coming through The Slot .Callaghan was senior to Scott so he was in command in that ill fated mission.
My uncle was in that battle...
Brave man your uncle...
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:44 AM
 
4,449 posts, read 4,620,060 times
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Quote:
It was indeed. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) was one of the greatest of emperors, and that particular event evidently haunted him.

Interested in the emperors?
Check out the old series, I Claudius. I got it from Amazon and I loved it. As far as I can tell (I am not a real historian) it followed what is known very closely.
You know that scene in 'I Claudius' was so good where they interpreted how Augustus reacted to the loss of varus' legions.
"Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" He was mad. Of course, Rome probably was sacred as hell that the 'Germans' were going to pay a visit perhaps to Rome now that there was no 'outer defense' in the area of the Empire. Shades of Hannibal. After Cannae, as we know another Roman disaster on the battlefield.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:26 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,578 posts, read 17,298,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbdowndemocrats View Post
I can't remember the book but the night Callaghan and Scott were killed in action a tincan sailor account of what happened when they abandoned ship was horrible.First he came to the aid of a fellow sailor trapped in his 5 inch gun turrent whose skin was beginning to sizzle like hamburger because of the intense fire below .With help from another sailor they freed the man and jumped overboard only to be sucked under from their ship sinking...they pop up only to be nearly run over by a fleeing destroyer...if that wasn't bad enough their ship had sunk to a depth that her depth charges started to go off beneath them!
Good grief!
Unless it is given some thought, few realize the horror of what happens aboard a ship in battle before she is finally abandoned.

In 1965 I was stationed temporarily aboard an old WWII destroyer escort, which was reactivated and transferred to the Colombian navy.
The ship, whose name I have forgotten, was named for an enlisted electrician who sealed himself in a lower compartment and held electrical breakers together with his hand so that the 5 inch gun on deck could keep firing. He went down with the ship.

One of the Medal of Honor stories I think of sometimes is the story of Peter Tomich:
Quote:
For distinguished conduct in the line of his profession, and extraordinary courage and disregard of his own safety, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor by the Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. Although realizing that the ship was capsizing, as a result of enemy bombing and torpedoing, Tomich remained at his post in the engineering plant of the U.S.S. Utah, until he saw that all boilers were secured and all fireroom personnel had left their stations, and by so doing lost his own life .
There is a lot more to the story than that, of course.
I remember Tomich because no relatives were ever found. I think they finally gave the medal to someone, but I can't remember who. Tomich was about 43 at the time of his death.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
You know that scene in 'I Claudius' was so good where they interpreted how Augustus reacted to the loss of varus' legions.
"Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" He was mad. Of course, Rome probably was sacred as hell that the 'Germans' were going to pay a visit perhaps to Rome now that there was no 'outer defense' in the area of the Empire. Shades of Hannibal. After Cannae, as we know another Roman disaster on the battlefield.
And the Romans were used to winning. They were used to being the top dog on the turf and having lost so catastrophically was worse. Rome might have sent more Legions after the Germanic forces and found more hospitable conditions and won. It was largely that the Legions were trapped and unable to use their best training that defeated them. I wonder what ran through the minds of those who had to decide if they should pay them back. Did they choose not to because they were still haunted by the loss, or in fear of another one. Under different circumstances, it well might have been different. And they gave us all the wars over that divide in culture for centuries....
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
And they gave us all the wars over that divide in culture for centuries....
that's a stretch.
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
that's a stretch.
No it isn't. Rome conqured the Gauls first. They won. They built highways and brought in trade and 'Romanized' their culture out of a tribal one. The Gauls were proud to be citizens of Rome.

If the Romans had won in dealing with the northern tribes, and equalled out the culture, and taken the intensely tribal elements out, the history of the centuries which followed would be very very different. The Northern tribes continuted to eat away at the northern bordors, and were used as mercinaries, frequently fighting for both sides. They were not trained like the legions and culturally were not the same as Rome. And the loss of the First Legion and the decision to not try again stopped the expansion of a society which depended on expansion to function properly.

Economically, Western Rome declined before it fell. Culturally it did as well. The continuous flow of the new resources were necessary. The decline in leadership as it hardened into a society out of sync weakened its ability to defend itself against invaders chipping away.

So if they'd gone after those who killed the Legion, and used their smarts and analysied why they lost, they might have extended the high period for a longer time, and most importantly, taken in the Germans and altered their culture so there would not be such a giant rift beween two nations for centuries.

Charlemaigne was a true blossoming of culture and knowledge, a brief time in the sun, but he followed the traditional method of dividing land between sons. The west went to one son, and became France. The east went to I believe Lewis, and became Germany. The middle strip went to the weaker son, who was displaced quite soon. For centuries wars have been fought over that land, between tribes, and emperiors, and monarchies. And the fundamental difference is base culture left over from Rome not Romanizing germany fed deep into the German psyche and was used to twist a modern nation into a willing believe in old old legends of a long ago world and their new skillfully manipulative Fuhrer.

You can say that part of it was the end of WW1, but WW1 was just another tit for tat engagement between the two cultures/nations and that time the French got to extract vengence. But it started when two very different cultures first continually faced off across a border back as Charlemaigne's sons battled to remove the weakest and take what he had.
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