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Old 06-28-2013, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Saugus, CA
98 posts, read 101,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Walmsley View Post
As well as anyone, Hitler understood the need for oil to fuel his war machines. Even though the German army of WWII wasn't as mechanized as one might think -- nearly a million draft horses were used in Russia, with 600,000 at Stalingrad alone-- the demands of the panzers often outstripped the ability of the quartermasters to supply their needs over badly stretched and tenuous supply lines. Consider that a heavy tank could consume a gallon of fuel every mile and it can be seen why German tanks saw limited use at Stalingrad and their motors were often shut down. Indeed, it wasn't unknown for a German tank crew to abandon an operational tank for lack of fuel. General Rommel, who knew first-hand the problems of fuel-deprivation, said that the outcome of a battle might be determined by the quartermasters before the actual shooting began.

Paradoxically, as Hitler conquered more land, his need for oil increased dramatically. It was exacerbated by the necessity of German involvement in North Africa and the need to supply oil to Italy. The need for oil was the impetus of Hitler's bold attempt to capture the Russian Caucasus oil fields in 1942. It was of such importance that Hitler told his generals that "If we don't take Maikop and Grozny then I must put an end to the war." The real prize was the Baku oil fields of the Caspian Sea region, which, if captured, would have probably shut down Russian ability to continue the war.

With the capture of the western-most oil field of Maikop (sometimes spelled Maykop) in November 1942, the German Army marked its farthest advance into Russia. They were over 1200 miles inside the Soviet Union. However, it was a bitter-sweet victory, because the Russians had virtually destroyed the oil wells and even carried off the most basic tools. Like the Ancient Mariner surrounded by water, the German panzers were stymied in a land of oil. Of course, even if obtainable, the oil was of little use to them without some means of converting it to gasoline, which was the main fuel for the German panzers. Conversely, Russian tanks used diesel.

About the time the German panzers had reached the oil fields, Hitler again reversed himself and made another of his fateful decisions and called for concentration on Stalingrad. The drawing off of forces to Stalingrad exposed the left flank of the German Caucasus forces and they were obliged to retreat from the oil fields. However, while there, the German mountain troops are said to have planted a Swastika on Mt Elbrus, the highest mountain in greater Europe.

Considering that the eastern front was some 1800 miles long and that German troops had penetrated over 1200 miles into the Soviet Union, it raises some 'what-if' questions to ask of fellow history buffs:

1, Could any other country or combination of countries have invaded
the Soviet Union with more success? On a post-war visit to
Stalingrad, even General de Gaulle is said to have grudgingly exclaimed
"What an amazing people!"

2. Although Turkey was already supplying vital chromite ore to
Germany, there was considerable pressure brought to join
the Axis. Could the entrance of Turkey have tipped the
advantage to the Axis, especially when German troops were
next door in the Caucasus?
Italy only needed oil because Hitler sucked it out of them, along with all of their other resources...
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:02 PM
 
4 posts, read 3,504 times
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For almost any question about Germany in WW2, it is important to remember that Hitler was a pathological homicidal maniac. He thought that killing people was the correct way to achieve any political goal. He almost thought of nothing else.

It would not have mattered if Hitler had a Texas size oilfield under Berlin. Hitler still would have made irrational decisions driven by his desire to kill people.

Hitler was a grossly incompetent leader. Germany could not fight a two front war. Both Italy and Japan were known to be industrial lightweights with no oil, tiny steel plants, and insufficient food supplies. Germany had already attempted a two front war (WW1) and had fought very well with many, many important victories, but was fought to exhaustion nevertheless.

Hitler completely neglected German vulnerabilities because he believed he could just kill people and take what he wanted. Germany could not fight WW2 without Swedish high grade iron ore shipped down the coast of Norway. Germany could not have made steel if the Allies had bombed the Ruhr coal mines and coal transport railroads (Speers' great fear). He competely neglected American industrial capacity (the US was building 90% of the worlds automobiles in 1939 - Germany was building 4%). He completely neglected every history lesson from World War One, and the fact that the U.S. could, did, and would provide powerful, well trained, an superbly equipped ships, planes, and field armies. It was obvious to everybody that Germny coild not figjt a two front war.

*** intervention against Russia might have delay things for a year or two, but the Japs had no ability whatsoever (except airplanes) to fight tanks, and would have been handily slaughtered by Russian tanks (the Japs knew this better than anybody!).

But wait! Let's consider Turkey. Hitler could have easily smashed the primitive Turkish Army (a mere 200,000 in all branches) and then had a PROTECTED SUPPLY LINE straight to the Iraqi oilfields in Kirkuk. The Russians would have had a tough time getting at the Germans in Turkey. From Turkey, Hitler could have harrassed or cut off oil pipelines to Haifa that supplied the entire British Mediterranean fleet. A railroad from Iraq thru Turkey thru Bulgaria to the Reich would have been well protected from Allied attack. Also, Turkey had lots of strategic metals like chrome, molybdenum, and tunsten too.

Last edited by gleemdorp; 02-25-2015 at 05:19 PM..
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:06 PM
 
17,874 posts, read 15,947,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gleemdorp View Post
For almost any question about Germany in WW2, it is important to remember that Hitler was a pathological homicidal maniac. He thought that killing people was the correct way to achieve any political goal. He almost thought of nothing else.
It sure worked well for Stalin, Mao, and many other leaders leading up to WW2 going back to Hammurabi.
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:30 PM
 
4 posts, read 3,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
It sure worked well for Stalin, Mao, and many other leaders leading up to WW2 going back to Hammurabi.
But not for Hitler, did it? He shot himself in the head.
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Atlantis
3,016 posts, read 3,910,427 times
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A fundamental understanding of Hitler's psychological condition (disorder) as a primary focal point is a necessary requirement first, before any attempts at making sense of his military strategies can be made. Too many historians attempt to figure out what Hitler was thinking politically and with military tactics, while ignoring his core psychological dysfunctions which are the map to understanding the decisions he made.
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,259,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post
A fundamental understanding of Hitler's psychological condition (disorder) as a primary focal point is a necessary requirement first, before any attempts at making sense of his military strategies can be made. Too many historians attempt to figure out what Hitler was thinking politically and with military tactics, while ignoring his core psychological dysfunctions which are the map to understanding the decisions he made.
As the war was slowly drawing to a close and slices of German being sliced away on both sides, an even more dysfuctional Hitler ordered German cities be flattened before they could be taken, so the enemy could have nothing. His generals carefully took pictures of rubble to show him and even more carefully made sure he never found out they'd lied. They were willing to say it was already over and save the survivors. He was willing to sacrifice his own too.

Another example was the series of death camps. While German generals needed trains to move soldiers from place to place, the majority of surviving German rail was dedicated to make sure all the undesirables were gone before the end. 'Clensing' the world of 'undesirables' had become more important than the reality that Germany had already lost and it was time to deal with tomorrow.

Surviving staff have described how Hitler isolated himself from his upper staff, and they would compete for access to the Furher thru his trusted staff, for especially as he got worse in his paranoia he was likely to fixate on the first who got through, and had no interest in seeing anyone else.

I think one of the reasons why Hitler has remained a fascination, besides his brutality, is that the why's are never simple and you need a progressive psych profile to see the reasons.
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Old 02-26-2015, 03:57 PM
 
4,449 posts, read 4,618,183 times
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You know if we take a look at Hitler's invasion of Russia sometimes the decisions made by him had to be dictated by arguably the machinations going on in his 'inner life' linked up with say 'destiny' infants his mortal enemies. There are things that seem to interfere with the great plans made on paper in rooms far from the battlefield.

Hitler certainly looked like he was under pressure as he got into that 'two offensive' position which did him in (Stalingrad or the Baku) . What does he do , reduce the pressure on Stalingrad with Paulus and Hoth? If he does that the operation against oil fields would have to be halted. But he chose Stalingrad.

They said he knew the 'world was watching'. His 'mind' and everything in it had to be too.


'
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:29 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,839,139 times
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The Germans already considerably weakened when they started operations in Spring 1942 as is shown by including large armies by other Axis members to fill in the expanding front line due to a scarcity of German units.

Hitler mesmerized by the idea of outright occupying, Stalingrad (Stalin's City) rather than using proper military procedures of cutting off the city and allowing it to wither. Stalingrad supplied by the Volga leading down to the Caspian and rail-heads east of the river. There were insufficient German troops to invest Stalingrad and continue the offensive into the Caucauses. It was a gamble and Hitler was a gambler who had been proved reasonably correct to then.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:15 AM
 
4,449 posts, read 4,618,183 times
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Re: Hitler a gambler

For sure. And you know sometimes I think Hitler really wished he was born into that caste that eventually became the guardian of the Germanic military tradition during the war. He like to get involved in military strategy to the extent that they had to listen to him rather than the other way around. Maybe he thought his generals were simply an impediment to him?
Curious what MOST of the staff thought about the situation of Stalingrad and the oil fields.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,839,139 times
Reputation: 6650
I have read Halder's Diary and he disliked the dimunition of German forces which entailed reaching for both Stalingrad and the Caucasus. He also warned about being overextended at Stalingrad as this was Stalin's campaigning grounds in WW1 where he also one a victory over white forces.(enveloping attack as well then)
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