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Old 08-24-2010, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post
CIA trained PNV militants in Paris during the early 40's hoping to use them on a eventual invasion of Spain....When Franco became an ally, they were abandoned with their training and weapons....
I knew about the PNV militants who were trained by the OSS (it wasn't called the CIA yet) and who worked with the French Resistance during WW2. Didn't think there was any connection to ETA which I'd read started about 1960 by left wing university students who advocated "direct action" and Marxism as opposed to the PNV's rejection of violence and Catholicism.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
I knew about the PNV militants who were trained by the OSS (it wasn't called the CIA yet) and who worked with the French Resistance during WW2. Didn't think there was any connection to ETA which I'd read started about 1960 by left wing university students who advocated "direct action" and Marxism as opposed to the PNV's rejection of violence and Catholicism.

------

Yes, there was a connection. There's an important documentary about this subject. As to "communist", most real opposition to Franco was communist, but they didn't have much idea what it was. They joined communist organizations because they were the only ones that were not assimilated.

PNV follows the Jesuitic rule of creating "many different little chapels"...
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post
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Yes, there was a connection. There's an important documentary about this subject.
Any sources as to the connection?

The only important PNV figure that I'm aware of who gravitated towards etarra circles was Telesforo Monzon, founder and first chief of the Ertzaintza (which was modeled on the California Highway Patrol, coincidentally founded by a Basque-American, Eugene Biscaluz ; the Ertzaintza of the 1930s used motorcycles far more than most continental European police forces of the time) and Interior Minister under the Basque Autonomous Government during the Spanish Civil War, who after the return to democracy co-founded Herri Batasuna.

Quote:
As to "communist", most real opposition to Franco was communist, but they didn't have much idea what it was. They joined communist organizations because they were the only ones that were not assimilated.
The PNV was (and is) certainly not communist. I believe the founders of ETA were part of a PNV youth group (obviously clandestine at the time given that the PNV was banned under Franco) who disliked the PNV's pro-western, Catholic, and Christian Democratic orientation, and the PNV's rejection of violence. The founders of ETA were inspired by Castro, Mao and the Algerian FLN - which obviously put them at odds with the PNV.

Quote:
PNV follows the Jesuitic rule of creating "many different little chapels"...
I am aware the PNV has different factions, and that the other Basque political parties like EA originally were spinoffs of the PNV.
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Old 08-26-2010, 01:25 AM
 
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Majoun

ETA is a spin-off of PNV made up by PNV's "enfant terribles" and supported at its inception by PNV, by then a illegal party. ETA received and probably is receiving support from a section of the Basque church if not all.

Don't pay much attention to ideology, ETA and PNV share the same goal. They have a Jesuitic outlook, Jesuits support armed struggle (even when the fighters are communists) when they are on the take. Look at Salvador.

For PNV, ETA are their children, maybe miscarriaged children, but their children.

As Arzalluz, the former president of PNV, stated not a long time ago: "Some shake the tree, and others (PNV) gather the nuts".
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Old 08-26-2010, 05:44 AM
 
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Any sources as to the connection?

The only important PNV figure that I'm aware of who gravitated towards etarra circles was Telesforo Monzon, founder and first chief of the Ertzaintza (which was modeled on the California Highway Patrol, coincidentally founded by a Basque-American, Eugene Biscaluz ; the Ertzaintza of the 1930s used motorcycles far more than most continental European police forces of the time) and Interior Minister under the Basque Autonomous Government during the Spanish Civil War, who after the return to democracy co-founded Herri Batasuna.
------

Majoun

Basque (PNV) and Catalan (CIU) Nationalism are both "bourgeois" and Catholic, but "bourgeoisies" adapted perfectly well to Francoism but there's a primordial difference.

When Democracy came, Catalans never accepted violence as a "instrument". The same Catalan Independentist Mouvement (ERC) dismantled the only Catalan terrorist group (Terra Lliure).

But many bourgeois and Catholic Basques (and the Basque church) supported ETA after the instauration of democracy (1978) believing that PNV and ETA were pursuing the same end but with different means.

Citing Arzalluz again, the former president of PNV....."some people use handguns (Basque) and other write poetry (Catalans)".

And probably your question will be...

¿How come a Catholic and Bourgeois political party secretly supports o supported ETA, a terrorist mouvement that proclaims himself to be Marxist-Leninist?

I'm not Basque, I can't answer.
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Old 08-26-2010, 03:52 PM
 
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Mano ...

I'm wondering if you might know about the percentage of ''Basque's'' or those in that region (Basque Country?) speak the language fluently vs speaking Spanish vs French ?
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post

But many bourgeois and Catholic Basques (and the Basque church) supported ETA after the instauration of democracy (1978) believing that PNV and ETA were pursuing the same end but with different means.

Citing Arzalluz again, the former president of PNV....."some people use handguns (Basque) and other write poetry (Catalans)".

And probably your question will be...

¿How come a Catholic and Bourgeois political party secretly supports o supported ETA, a terrorist mouvement that proclaims himself to be Marxist-Leninist?

I'm not Basque, I can't answer.
Probably out of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" argument.

Both the PNV and ETA were opposed to Franco and banned under Franco ; while ETA separated from the PNV over ideology and religion, they were seen as undermining Franco's rule, and the PNV - despite being bourgeois, Catholic, and moderate - saw ETA as sharing the same enemy.

The French governments of De Gaulle, Pompidou, and Giscard gave asylum to members of ETA, and Gaullists certainly were and are not pro-communist. (Giscard wasn't a Gaullist ; he was a member of the Republican Party, a moderate conservative party opposed to Gaullist dirigisme and social conservatism, which he subsequently merged into the centrist UDF as French president ; however he was elected president with Gaullist support, as the Gaullists saw him as preferable to Mitterand.) However, the French government saw etarras as political refugees from Francoism no different than other political refugees from Spain at the time, and Giscard's government continued to give asylum to etarras even though Spain was already a democracy. Etarras finding a safe haven in France didn't end until Mitterand was French president and his fellow socialist Gonzalez was Spanish PM. (It probably helped that Basque nationalism for all practical purposes didn't exist in the French Basque Country in the '60s, and ETA weren't targeting the French government, police, or military. It's probably no coincidence that Basque terrorism in France didn't begin until Mitterand was president and cracked down on etarras finding a safe haven across the border).
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:23 AM
 
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Majoun

It's not the "enemy of the enemy" but the "parable of the prodigal son".
I know it's quite tough to say, but ETA and PNV are like Janus, the bifacial god.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Thanks for the posts. I believe my conexion to the basque ethnic group comes from my mother´s father. And yes my blood type is 0- .I am very interested in the differences in social intelligence, language contructions-invention and sociopolitical institutions.I noticed that its a very cooperative society with hardly any tyrants or dictators known among their leaders and that the females have had for millenia very relevant roles. Something more to explore.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Six Foot Three View Post
Along the same lines of the thread about the ''Who Were the Sea Peoples'' and while none of us on here probably know the answer as to who the Basques are and where they come from however i'm still interested in everyone's take . (Yes that's you also neng )

A few things we do know and that is the Basque males are very high in Y-DNA R1b as that tells me that they did arrive somewhere east of the Black Sea region and migrated on a southernly route through Anatolia where they crossed into europe and made their way northwest eventually to the Basque region and then possibly migrated north to the ''celtic countries'' later on. However the females are highest in mtDNA that is still considered Paleo Europeans (along with the Sami's) and on top of that their language is a non Indo-European.

So if the males were migrating nomads and the females are Iberian hunter gatherer's then what happened to the Basque males ?? Did the migrating invaders kill off all the males and intermingle with the females and hence we have such a separation of the DNA between male and female as no other group has such a high proportion of this with exception to the Scandanavian Sami who's females are similar to Basque females.

As for their language ... well i assume the migrating males shunned their Indo-European tongue(s) and adopted the female tongue of those Paleo Basques. I'm still perplexed as to how they remained so isolated from all the different migrating peoples over the thousands of years to keep their ancient mtDNA and Basque tongue??
6, I think Jack Lubell has done work on the physical anthropological studies on the Iberian population over time.

I prefer physical anthropology over genetics to understand population history because you can actually compare how populations change over time and make comparisons with living people. You can also find out when a demographic shift occurred.

Ancient DNA has made some progress but there is still the problem of contamination.

If memory serves me correct in terms of physical anthropology, the Basques, and Iberians in general, have links both to modern Europeans and ancient Iberian populations going back at least to Mesolithic times.

Last edited by kovert; 07-24-2013 at 12:41 PM..
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