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Old 09-17-2009, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
302 posts, read 924,132 times
Reputation: 92

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I really want solid hardwood floors but from what I hear you can't put solid hardwood on concrete but instead need to float an engineered floor. Is there anyway around this? Do I need to lay a plywood base to nail the hardwood to? Does anyone have any opinions or experience with engineered floor?
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Johns Creek, GA
16,379 posts, read 60,663,466 times
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For the sake of cost- do a gluedown of engineered.
Engineered is plenty stable- and as long as the moisture level of the concrete is low at the time of install (I can't remember the "ideal" % that is required), the glue acts as a moisture barrier.
Installing site finished h/w requires a lot more work/cost. vapor barrier, sleepers with tap-con screws not PAF's, shims, 3/4" plywood, another vapor barrier. Then there's the possibility of having to reset doors, or at the least cut off the bottoms, and re-do risers on stairs.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,873 posts, read 43,663,395 times
Reputation: 18494
The only reason engineered flooring came to the market place is all the known problems and failures, trying to go over concrete with a solid wood, even with raised plywood, or sleeper strips.

Concrete is known to have moisture vapor emissions(MVE). It is not a static emission rate, but very dynamic, because of the capillary pores, in the matrix, after the water used in the mixing, has dehydrated.
Moisture barriers can be used, but the key is a good system that is not compromised in any way what so ever.

A floating plywood subfloor over a sealed moisture barrier, with the solid wood fastened to it, so the moisture barrier is not punctured. This will raised the subfloor an inch, and then your wood flooring on top of that.
Fastening the plywood to the concrete, compromises the moisture barrier, by poking 32 holes per 4x8 sheet of plywood. Even asphalt mastic can be compromised.
These methods are very time consuming labor, and the cost can add up quick, not including the materials cost, that will also be added.

Engineered flooring can be floated if it is designed to do so. Not all engineered floors can be floated.

I like a full gluedown engineered, over a properly prepared slab, with a sawn face, instead of the fake looking rotary peel construction. Using an adhesive and moisture barrier system. Like Mapei WFM Planiseal and their 990 adhesive, or Bostik's MVP and their BST adhesive, or Franklin's Titebond system.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
302 posts, read 924,132 times
Reputation: 92
Great advice guys thanks alot.
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Old 09-18-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,873 posts, read 43,663,395 times
Reputation: 18494
Quote:
Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr View Post
the glue acts as a moisture barrier.


Not in a single application, it is not a moisture barrier.
If you build it thick enough, it does have excellent perm ratings.

The deal is, your spreading/combing it out with a notched trowel. The notching scrapes the substrate with a very thin film, only leaving adhesive where the notch is. That very thin film of adhesive is nowhere thick enough to provide any perm rating.

The thinking you have just misinformed the forum with, has caused many failures of wood flooring, glued over a damp crawlspace, or basement, along with concrete being the main culprit.
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek, GA
16,379 posts, read 60,663,466 times
Reputation: 21175
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenBow View Post
The thinking you have just misinformed the forum with, has caused many failures of wood flooring, glued over a damp crawlspace, or basement, along with concrete being the main culprit.
I didn't "miss inform"- I clearly stated that the moisture level needed to be at a specific level (I couldn't remember to what level it should be). Besides, if my professional installer, who has done numerous installs for me will guarantee his work/repair any problems what's the difference?
Whenever he has done a gluedown for me- the first thing he does is a moisture check of the slab. If it's to high, we turn up the heat.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:40 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,873 posts, read 43,663,395 times
Reputation: 18494
Quote:
Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr View Post
I didn't "miss inform"-
"the glue acts as a moisture barrier."
This is what you said.






Quote:
Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr View Post
I clearly stated that the moisture level needed to be at a specific level (I couldn't remember to what level it should be).
It depends what method your testing with.
ANSI 2780 in-stu 75%rH is the limit, with a minimum of 3 test sites
CC test is 3# per 1000sq.ft, with a minimum of 3 test sites
Tramex concrete meter, id 4.5 on the upper scale. every sq.ft. of the slab.


Anything more than that, and you better invest in a urethane moisture blocking and adhesive "SYSTEM"
With solid over concrete, it is mandatory requirement to use an uncompromised moisture barrier.





Quote:
Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr View Post
Besides, if my professional installer, who has done numerous installs for me will guarantee his work/repair any problems what's the difference?


That depends on how much risk, your willing to take.




Quote:
Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr View Post
Whenever he has done a gluedown for me- the first thing he does is a moisture check of the slab. If it's to high, we turn up the heat.

LOL! seriously!!! And installers wonder why certified inspectors nail them for their ignorance on a regular basis.
What happens when you turn the heat off?
What do you "think" that accomplishes?
What effect does that heat have on your wood sitting there acclimating?
I can clearly see, you don't understand concrete moisture vapor emissions.
You have better odds in Vegas.

Last edited by BentBow; 09-19-2009 at 08:17 AM..
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