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Old 03-23-2011, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,336 posts, read 6,923,140 times
Reputation: 2084

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so just to expand on the gfci - when you are putting in that outlet, you have to do a "hot" test to find which wires go to the "line" side. so you'll have the four wires uncapped but totally separated with no copper touching and then you'll turn the circuit breaker ON and then the pair that shows voltage on your tester is the line side and the pair that are dead are the load side. you can also just touch each pair with your tongue and see which one hurts. KIDDING! DON'T REALLY DO THAT! when you figure out which is which, label it and turn off the breaker and then wire up the outlet. never touch a hot wire of course.

with a plain outlet you wire in the whole thing "cold" and then turn it on - line and load sides are irrelevant.
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:37 AM
 
438 posts, read 1,695,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
so just to expand on the gfci - when you are putting in that outlet, you have to do a "hot" test to find which wires go to the "line" side. so you'll have the four wires uncapped but totally separated with no copper touching and then you'll turn the circuit breaker ON and then the pair that shows voltage on your tester is the line side and the pair that are dead are the load side. you can also just touch each pair with your tongue and see which one hurts. KIDDING! DON'T REALLY DO THAT! when you figure out which is which, label it and turn off the breaker and then wire up the outlet. never touch a hot wire of course.

with a plain outlet you wire in the whole thing "cold" and then turn it on - line and load sides are irrelevant.

Haha! Good one on the tongue test! If I use a plain outlet, I do have to have the white wires on the silver screws correct? Also, do you recommend ALL my outlets should be GFCI?
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,336 posts, read 6,923,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner0325 View Post
Haha! Good one on the tongue test! If I use a plain outlet, I do have to have the white wires on the silver screws correct? Also, do you recommend ALL my outlets should be GFCI?
yes, no matter what kind of outlet it is, white goes on silver and black on gold. however, a standard outlet cares not which of the two white wires go under which of the two silver screws or which of the two black wires goes under which gold screw. a gfci does care separates each connection into either "line" or "load."

Some of the confusion may come from this. The black wire i call the "hot" wire, but I also said that when you have all four wires disconnected and flip the breaker that one pair will be "hot" and one pair will be "cold." in this case, when i say "hot" i mean they are carrying voltage from the main panel while the other pair are just cold disconnected wire.

Hopefully that makes sense
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:58 AM
 
438 posts, read 1,695,874 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
yes, no matter what kind of outlet it is, white goes on silver and black on gold. however, a standard outlet cares not which of the two white wires go under which of the two silver screws or which of the two black wires goes under which gold screw. a gfci does care separates each connection into either "line" or "load."

Some of the confusion may come from this. The black wire i call the "hot" wire, but I also said that when you have all four wires disconnected and flip the breaker that one pair will be "hot" and one pair will be "cold." in this case, when i say "hot" i mean they are carrying voltage from the main panel while the other pair are just cold disconnected wire.

Hopefully that makes sense
Yep makes sense, I think I got it! Thanks again!
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:31 PM
 
23,559 posts, read 70,095,641 times
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I'm with K'builder. Call an electrician. I'm not comfortable with what is going on,as it is being described. The outlet issue may be part of a bigger problem. This is a case where I would not simply replace the outlet and hope the problem went away. I'd be doing some other checks and meter measurements.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,707 posts, read 79,517,251 times
Reputation: 39444
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
so just to expand on the gfci - when you are putting in that outlet, you have to do a "hot" test to find which wires go to the "line" side. so you'll have the four wires uncapped but totally separated with no copper touching and then you'll turn the circuit breaker ON and then the pair that shows voltage on your tester is the line side and the pair that are dead are the load side. you can also just touch each pair with your tongue and see which one hurts. KIDDING! DON'T REALLY DO THAT! when you figure out which is which, label it and turn off the breaker and then wire up the outlet. never touch a hot wire of course.

with a plain outlet you wire in the whole thing "cold" and then turn it on - line and load sides are irrelevant.

Only one should be hot. The returns do not carry voltage unless connected. You should have two white wires and two black. One of the black ones should be hot. If you use a "beeper" you will nto be able to identify the line and load neutral wires. Only the black one that is hot.

If you care about which way the white wires connect, you can use a two prong tester instead of a beeper. Then you may be able to tell which white is actually grounded to the box and which goes out the the load side. However sometimes the load side will read as grounded due to some screwball wiring that connects the neutral back to thebox or to some other grounded location. Personally I do not think it matters which white connects to where, all that matters is that they all connect to each other somewhere and eventually make the connection back to the box. The power (black) is directional. It must go only from one place to another, but the return side (white) is not direcitonal, it just needs to provide a neutral (aka return or ground). In fact, you can just connect all of the whites together in the box with a single jumper that goes from the neutral conenction ot the outlet, but it is easier to just use the outlet to make the connection.

The GFCI should have one side marked "neutral" or - that is where the white wires go. It really does not matter which ones go where. The other side of the GFCI will have screws or push in holes marked Line and load.

Find and mark the hot block wire. TURN THE POWER BACK OFF AT THE BREAKER. THen connect the hot black wire to "Line" and the non-hot black wire to "load" On the GFCI. Turn the power back on, check the outlet, and all of the other outlets and lights. Turn the power back off and install the outlet in the box. Turn the power back on. Done.

If the wires are long, sometimes it is easier if you oringially connect the outlet upside down. Then twist it right side up after connecting the wire. This will twist the wire together and make it easier to get it into the box. Some may say not to do this because the wires can pull loose, but I have done it for ten years with no problems. It works great. Just be careful about the connections. It is really important to have tight connections.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,707 posts, read 79,517,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
you can also just touch each pair with your tongue and see which one hurts. KIDDING! DON'T REALLY DO THAT!

I used to love to grab an electric fence wire while holding someone's hand or touching them. The trick is to let go of the wire before you break you conenction with them. Otherwise you get nailed too.

You do nto want to contact a 15 or 20 amp live line though. Supposedly, that can easily kill you, although I am still alive after at lest five zaps.
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:04 PM
 
Location: sowf jawja
1,941 posts, read 9,224,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner0325 View Post
We smelled burning plastic last night and . . . I found the outlet that the drill charger was plugged into was REALLY hot and slightly melting. . . . . I unscrewed the outlet and it was charred and melted on the inside . . . . Also one of the wires was pretty much melted including the insulation. !
i have a few general comments from glancing over this thread. . . .


you had a bad connection @ the receptacle; in another post you state that you had two of each black and white conductors.

the load of everything upstream is being fed through the small brass tab on the side of the recep.

the best way to install a recep is to make a joint on all conductors, and send one of each to the recep; not to feed the entire circuit load through the recep.

anyhow, the bad connection was either inside of the recep or @ the screw terminal on the side; this caused overheating which is what caused the insulation to melt. if the insulation is melted from the outside in, its external overheating. if the copper is noticeably darker and brittle, it was internal overheating.


#12 copper wire is rated for 30A

a 20A circuit breaker will hold a continuous load of around 25A, sometimes as high as 27A. it can take up to 6 times the rated current of a circuit breaker to cause instantaneous trip.

ideal current load is 80% of the rating of the OCPD; 16A on a 20A circuit.

which brings me back to you having a loose connection; there is most likely no overload at the receptacle and nothing wrong with your charger.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:03 AM
 
Location: Knoxville
4,705 posts, read 25,228,861 times
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"#12 copper wire is rated for 30A" SORRY, #12 wire is only rated for 20 amps. You have to have at least a #10 wire for 30 amps.

To the OP, you need an electrician. Melted wires are a sign that some overheating and/or arcing has gone on. An electrician needs to look inside the panel and see if there are other wires melted. You could have an issue that is not isolated to this one outlet.

This needs to be checked out by a professional, not by someone that is getting solutions from the internet. No offense meant with that last part, but it is clear you are not familiar with electrical, and this is something that can KILL YOU, or BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN. Get a professional.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
5,615 posts, read 14,757,337 times
Reputation: 2555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner0325 View Post
My last question (I promise) is if I do put in a new GFCI outlet or outlet and say the miss-wiring was the only problem to begin with, would this get the power back on in my living room and hallway once it is in place? So that outlet is preventing power to my living room and hallway?
Just remember, the GFCI protection will be to protect you, not what you plug in. A ground would protect your stuff.

IMO you're best off by finding an electrician who can have a look at the condition of the wires and help make sure a new outlet doesn't go into meltdown mode like the old one.
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