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Materials, especially lumber followed a similar pattern. In the 1950s there was still quite a lot of decent lumber. Quality had fallen off a bit as they began moving to younger trees and faster growing species. The quality drop continues today, but It cannot get much worse. Soon lumber simply will not be able to support a building. Already I have to send back hundreds of 2x4s because it was too soft, twisted or too wet to hold nails.
When my contractor was doing work on my house he showed me a new 2x4.... and told me that each ring of growth was the strength of the wood, and in between the rings was cellulose, which feeds the tree, but isn't strong. Fast growing trees have fewer rings and they are farther apart, and they are cut young, and that's what the lumber manufacturers are growing for our lumber. The 2x4 he used that day, in something non structural, had one thin ring.
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Originally Posted by Coldjensens
People buy a pinto and then sue because they did nto get a Cadillac.
No -- they sued because the Pintos blew up, but I get your analogy.
When my contractor was doing work on my house he showed me a new 2x4.... and told me that each ring of growth was the strength of the wood, and in between the rings was cellulose, which feeds the tree, but isn't strong. Fast growing trees have fewer rings and they are farther apart, and they are cut young, and that's what the lumber manufacturers are growing for our lumber. The 2x4 he used that day, in something non structural, had one thin ring.
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Lumber today is all graded at the plant, and has to meet strength requirements for the particular grade that it's stamped for. As long as the grade stamp is correct for the application per the building code, it doesn't matter if the stud has 1 ring or 100- it'll be just fine for the application.
People get all wound up with "today's lumber isn't what it was 100 years ago", as if it really matters. Sure, it sometimes comes out wetter than ideal and tends to twist more than the old stuff, but if it's properly installed, it's not an issue. If we waited 50 years for a tree to grow to get "better" lumber, we'd be paying $20 a stud instead of $3, and that'd just give people something else to complain about.
Lumber today is all graded at the plant, and has to meet strength requirements for the particular grade that it's stamped for. As long as the grade stamp is correct for the application per the building code, it doesn't matter if the stud has 1 ring or 100- it'll be just fine for the application.
People get all wound up with "today's lumber isn't what it was 100 years ago", as if it really matters. Sure, it sometimes comes out wetter than ideal and tends to twist more than the old stuff, but if it's properly installed, it's not an issue. If we waited 50 years for a tree to grow to get "better" lumber, we'd be paying $20 a stud instead of $3, and that'd just give people something else to complain about.
Well, all the 'greenies' are going to hate me, but all the construction I have done is with old-growth.
And yes, decks should be made out of cypress.
Costs more, but lasts forever (along with the brick, cut-granite foundations, and all the other sorts....
I do believe in I-beams for long runs, though I understand the issues if there is a bad fire. (laminated beams are good too).
Let's see how hard your chop-saw has to work to cut through a real old-growth 2x4 (and not the 1.5x3.5 junk)
The beams in one of my houses, in the attic are 12x12 old growth. With a flat roof in a lake-effect area, that is what you need.
Don't even get me started with hurricane straps, or how the house is bolted to the foundation.
I understand there is 'code', but that is the minimum that is required to pass inspection. Just like the space program.... everything contracted by the lowest bidder... oops, two space shuttles disintegrated.
Lumber today is all graded at the plant, and has to meet strength requirements for the particular grade that it's stamped for. As long as the grade stamp is correct for the application per the building code, it doesn't matter if the stud has 1 ring or 100- it'll be just fine for the application.
People get all wound up with "today's lumber isn't what it was 100 years ago", as if it really matters. Sure, it sometimes comes out wetter than ideal and tends to twist more than the old stuff, but if it's properly installed, it's not an issue. If we waited 50 years for a tree to grow to get "better" lumber, we'd be paying $20 a stud instead of $3, and that'd just give people something else to complain about.
It does matter if you care that your house remains standing. Talk to a sturctural engineer. Most will not even structurally rate somethign built with traditional lumber. It is too unpedictable. For that matter, talk to an old style craftsman carpenter. Some are moving away from using wood and two that know of will not build anything out of traditional lumber (i.e. 2x4 framing) except framing for non-bearing walls. This is based on their experience with call backs and warranty issues from defective lumber. They know that lumber is garbage, they did not know why.
If I can nail two boards together and then pull them apart with my bare hands and very little effort, I do not want that lumber used in my house.
If I can shoot a nail into a 2x4 and then push/pull it out with my fingers becuase the wood is reedy and wet - that lumber is not going into my house either.
If I find a puddle of whatever it is that drains out of saturated lumber on my floor after leaving a stack of wood in one place for five days, it all goes back. I am not going to use any of it.
If I build a nice square wall and come back in a week to find it looking very much like a pretzel, I take that wood back too.
I asked builder clients what they do in those circumatances and the mass production builders said that they usually just drywall over it. Usually, the drywall will cover it up and hold it together. If not it can be fixed later. They cannot slow down production.
Of course one of these same guys demonstrated to me how you can just walk right through a modern drywall wall without even slowing if you know where the studs, wireing and plumbing are located. I am glad that they are using drywal to make up for thedeficiencies of lumber.
Do new houses fall down? Sometimes, but rarely. Do they blow down? Sometimes, more frequently, but still not that common. Do they have problems due to poor quality lumber? Frequently.
You are not likely to have your house fall down due to bad lumber, not even in a windstorm (maybe in a hurricane). It cna happen, ut it is unlikely. However, you are likely to eventually need to perform costly repairs due to bad lumber.
Since good lumber is simply not available, the reasoanble options are to use steel studs, glu-lams, or heavier framing (2x6s or 4x4s). You can also use tursses, but there is an added risk in a fire. Plastics have come a long way as well and can often be used in leiu of lumber.
The forced growth stuff that is currently available shuold not even be called lumber.
Lumber today is all graded at the plant, and has to meet strength requirements for the particular grade that it's stamped for. As long as the grade stamp is correct for the application per the building code, it doesn't matter if the stud has 1 ring or 100- it'll be just fine for the application.
People get all wound up with "today's lumber isn't what it was 100 years ago", as if it really matters. Sure, it sometimes comes out wetter than ideal and tends to twist more than the old stuff, but if it's properly installed, it's not an issue. If we waited 50 years for a tree to grow to get "better" lumber, we'd be paying $20 a stud instead of $3, and that'd just give people something else to complain about.
Still, I'll still take my true dimensional old growth redwood/stucco 85 y.o. house with thick plaster walls that is as solid as can be and has required far less maintenance than those supposed "trouble free" (NOT) slapped together houses of a more recent vintage that some of my friends have unfortunately ended up with.
Some buyers, especially first timer, just aren't suited for the upkeep either financially or tempermentally and will gravitate toward the newer home to avoid the open ended nature of that sort of work and probably also expecting to sell before the new house also begins to show those inevitable signs of age.
Also we older buyers who can and have done it all but have gotten to the point in life we no longer can/nor care care to do it all plus can afford to hire others to do so.
I would rather play golf/drink/nap then take on projects I can/have done in the past.....LOL
Problem is, my 81 year old house requires less fixups than the ten year old new house built with cheaper stuff. My walls are literally a foot thick and I actually have TWO layers of hardwood floor. Sure its small, but it far more sturdy than something going on fifteen which was built with the cheapest materials as fast as it could be chucked up. A poster a while ago posted that new houses, unless custom built, are built with an expected lifespan of 30 years before the repairs become massive. Mine had new plumming and electrical put in, and could use a new roof in a year or two. But that wears out in any of them. Sturctural repairs should last a whole lot longer than that.
If I wanted one which wasn't going to cost me a huge bill all the time, I'd go for MUCH older, buy cheap, redo the plumming and electrical and have character to boot. When the new track homes are falling apart, mine will still be standing firm. One of my neighbors does salvage, and this kind of home requires a crane to get the central beam out of it since the wood used in 'kit' homes was of such good quality.
Yep. No kidding. Mine unplugged the modem occasionally until I told it had to leave if it didn't stop. I was sitting in the other room, alone except cats, and somehow inbetween going online, writing and trying to go back online after the cats sleeping in that room went berserkers suddenly, I found no network. Moved a couple of boxes keeping the moden and router from being messed with and discovered ALL the plugs in the power strip unplugged.
Cats don't have hands and can't lift boxes so it wasn't them... but he/she/it has behaved since.
The distinction in this type of discussion is usually when they began eliminating craftsmanshiip and focussing on mass production assembly line type construction techniques. Along with this they began to run out of true quality materials (especially lumber) and to focus more and more on size and features in lieu of quality in every aspect of construction of homes. About this time, they also began to focus more and ore on convenience instead of aesthetics. They got rid of 5 paneld doors and fancy baseboard and crown modlings that need dusting and went with more and more flat surfaces wherever practical. This was both cheaper and easier to clean.
There is not fixed date. The mass production techniques started generally in the 1950s. a noticable drop in qulaity was apparent by the late 1960s, but there were still a large number of craftsman built homes. By the 1970s qulaify was pretty much gone as a focus for most homes and it continued to degrade from there.
Materials, especially lumber followed a similar pattern. In the 1950s there was still quite a lot of decent lumber. Quality had fallen off a bit as they began moving to younger trees and faster growing species. The quality drop continues today, but It cannot get much worse. Soon lumber simply will not be able to support a building. Already I have to send back hundreds of 2x4s because it was too soft, twisted or too wet to hold nails. On a commercial constriction project, they do not stop to sort through or look over the lumber, they just go go go go . Crank those houses out and fix them later if they break. They may not break until the builder is long gone anyway since many builders now disappear a year or so after the last house is sold in the project. Even some of the big companies form small companies to build two or three projects and then disband them. People buy a pinto and then sue because they did nto get a Cadillac.
Fortunately as materials and workmanship quality declined, technology has advanced and partially made up for some of the problems, or even improved overall structural integrity (especially when it comes to foundation/water issues).
So anyway, in this context a "new" house is generally considered on that was built after mass production techniques generally came into widespread use. This means 1950s or 1960s.
So true. My brother in law works for a framing company. They guarentee their houses. Since the cost is higher since they do, they may go under.
But when they were buying their new house, mid 90's, since he was in the industry, they let him wander around while it was being built. He noticed a window which was framed crookedly, even if you looked at it from the outside. He told the foreman who said it would be fixed. Came back next day and it had drywall. He got to look at the rest on the street, and took notes on all the stuff which was poorly done, wrong, or just sloppy. He told them and was told it would be fixed.
They moved in. The window was still crooked. The light on the porch was installed, but nobody had put wiring in. And other things. The street got together and sued the company. He had his notebook and the houses were inspected and it was ALL still there. They had the bond put up by the builder held until every last repair to the neighborhood was done, and they had a year or it was confiscated. He had wanted to build his own, since he saw the mess most new homes were, but didn't have the time.
Unfortunately, most people don't have him looking out for them. When the door frame breaks when someone slams a door becasue it was bad wood, they are stuck. You buy a specially built home, maybe you get better, but an overnight quicky they value only how fast it takes to build.
When they salvage old homes here, the wood beams and other structrual wood are often sold for good money, since its hard to find. Not that old homes don't have problems, but its here and there. If its standing firm and is 80, it was solidly built and the rest is maintaince.
Yep. No kidding. Mine unplugged the modem occasionally until I told it had to leave if it didn't stop. I was sitting in the other room, alone except cats, and somehow inbetween going online, writing and trying to go back online after the cats sleeping in that room went berserkers suddenly, I found no network. Moved a couple of boxes keeping the moden and router from being messed with and discovered ALL the plugs in the power strip unplugged.
Cats don't have hands and can't lift boxes so it wasn't them... but he/she/it has behaved since.
That's gotta be the biggest problem with otherwise beautiful old homes. They are so great that not only will the owners stay for life... they wont leave even after death.
Who knows what the future holds, but I intend to haunt my old house when I go too. At least I'll have lots of company!
The "cocoon effect" is in full-force; which is the one thing that most tend to forget. It's not a "keeping up with the Joneses" as much as not having to venture out for...
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