I say "Solar," you say......? (convert, installation, gas)
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Thanks for the list of energy savers. Most of that we have setup, windows, less than 5 year old appliances and such.
One thing we are looking to is re-insulating. The house was built in 68, and the attic insulation is pretty light. I've heard of a company near by that will redo all the attic and wall insulation for $50, they just take your tax credit as their payment. Got me interested, I have their number I just need to snap some photos of my attic and see what they say.
Solar is practical, because it is subsidized (like gasoline).
Photovoltaic Panels are not a toy or a game but a real world energy source.
Some homes get 100% of al power needs (including heat & hot water from PV.
You do realize that fuels cells are NOT an energy source, but just storage, like a battery.
And what would you be milling with your windmill? Perhaps you meant to say wind turbine?
And nuclear will not pay for itself quickly, which is one of the reasons no new nuclear plants have been built in about 30 years.
If solar energy would be practical at the moment, without being subsidized, how come there is not a single large energy company that has not gone broke in the past four years? Even the ones that were bailed-out by the Obama administration already tanked.
Thanks for the list of energy savers. Most of that we have setup, windows, less than 5 year old appliances and such.
One thing we are looking to is re-insulating. The house was built in 68, and the attic insulation is pretty light. I've heard of a company near by that will redo all the attic and wall insulation for $50, they just take your tax credit as their payment. Got me interested, I have their number I just need to snap some photos of my attic and see what they say.
Most States have programs where some of the cost for insulating your home is refunded to you. Also if you buy energy efficient appliances. But the rebates aren't really very large in some cases.
Insulating the attic or roof is an excellent idea, and so sealing any air leaks (cracks, etc.). A lot of cold air gets inside the house through the electrical outlets, too. But sealing these is best done by a person who knows how, since it requires pulling the leads out of the box, sealing the openings, and re-installing the outlets once the sealant has set.
That's not going to last, the honeymoon is almost over. There is glut on the market and once production is stabilized and more realistic the prices will come up plus the environmentalists will now be setting their sites on NG.
This is what you get from power distributor if you're feeding into the system? You can make electric with coal/natural gas for about 3 to 5 cents kWh. Note that's all costs inclusive including the cost of the plant and it's the wholesale cost of course. Average electric rate in the US is only 11 cents a kWh.
Disagree. I suspect coal is dead and wind and solar have taken a big hit. Nuclear stopped breathing in Japan and had a stake driven through its heart by natural gas. It appears there will be vastly more gas obtained and marketed in the next years.
The peak cost cited is the peak cost charged by a S. CA power company on a time of use plan. While virtually all power sources are much cheaper this is the cost of the peaking capability...general relatively cheap but inefficient gas turbines used only to met the peak need.
Disagree. I suspect coal is dead and wind and solar have taken a big hit. Nuclear stopped breathing in Japan and had a stake driven through its heart by natural gas. It appears there will be vastly more gas obtained and marketed in the next years.
I'll give you three reasons why. Firstly we have a glut at the moment and that's not going to continue. I'm right here in the area they are drilling and last spring they scaled back expansion considerably. They aren't making enough money. The price is going to come back up, the only question is how much. Right now they are just hovering below the cost of coal.
Secondly the only reason coal is "dead" is because of things like the CO2 proposals that would effectively prevent building a new coal plant, those proposals would effect any plant started after March of next year. If these caps were retroactive even some NG plants built at the early part of the last decade couldn't meet them. Coal has always been the price you needed to beat, if coal is out of the way Natural gas doesn't really have any competition does it?
Last but not least the environmentalists are already ramping up their "war against NG".
What about recent studies that suggest that the extraction and burning of natural gas has a bigger impact on climate change than coal does?
They're alarming. Studies in places like the Marcellus Shale and Colorado have shown that the greenhouse emissions from natural gas are much, much worse than originally thought. Unfortunately, there isn't yet a comprehensive empirical analysis of the full carbon footprint of gas. So the Sierra Club—along with almost every other environmental group—is calling for a full study that documents those emissions and the extent to which they can be controlled or avoided altogether.
See where that's going? Read that page, it's basically roadmap for their agenda. Now you may say to yourself NG is much lower in CO2 emissions but you're only partly correct. What they are considering here is the total cycle including the CO2 produced at the pad. these are the same organizations that have effectively regulated coal out of business over a very short time.
I'll give you three reasons why. Firstly we have a glut at the moment and that's not going to continue. I'm right here in the area they are drilling and last spring they scaled back expansion considerably. They aren't making enough money. The price is going to come back up, the only question is how much. Right now they are just hovering below the cost of coal.
Secondly the only reason coal is "dead" is because of things like the CO2 proposals that would effectively prevent building a new coal plant, those proposals would effect any plant started after March of next year. If these caps were retroactive even some NG plants built at the early part of the last decade couldn't meet them. Coal has always been the price you needed to beat, if coal is out of the way Natural gas doesn't really have any competition does it?
Last but not least the environmentalists are already ramping up their "war against NG".
See where that's going? Read that page, it's basically roadmap for their agenda. Now you may say to yourself NG is much lower in CO2 emissions but you're only partly correct. What they are considering here is the total cycle including the CO2 produced at the pad. these are the same organizations that have effectively regulated coal out of business over a very short time.
They are cutting back because they are in an over supply situation driven price down quickly.
They are in fact trying to set up to export the stuff. Hopefully they will hit resistance to this - but that is what the gas industry is trying to do.
Yes they are properly going to get heat from the environmentalists. But they are not going to get shut down any more than coal did. And hopefully we will get some regulation to control the process for better environmental outcome.
But NG has simply cut off coal. No more new plants. No real interest in a better plant. And this is going to last for some years. So coal has peaked and will begin to decline faster over the next years.
I always thought it would be nuclear that would be the bridge fuel to the renewables. But it is now pretty clear that nuclear and coal have seen their day.
The good/bad news is that NG has changed the cost basis so strongly that solar and wind have been postponed for maybe a decade. The overall economic story however is still very good for the US.
But they are not going to get shut down any more than coal did.
Let me repeat again, the new CO2 cap proposals will effectively prevent any new coal plants from being built. While it's not law yet that proposal will be effective in March no matter when it becomes law assuming it does become law. The mere threat of this regulation will prevent any coal plants from being built, until it's either taken off the table permanently or finalized there is going to be absolutely no movement to build new coal plants. Nobody in their right mind is going to invest in a coal plant with that hanging over their head.
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But NG has simply cut off coal.
It has certainly played a factor but it's not the only reason.
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But it is now pretty clear that nuclear and coal have seen their day.
It's only been year that the cost of NG has dipped below the cost of coal, I'm not one to count my chickens before they hatch.
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The overall economic story however is still very good for the US.
At the moment yes because NG has provided a nice buffer and as long as it can maintain a reasonable cost it's a very good thing, it remains to be seen if it will stay like that.
Let me repeat again, the new CO2 cap proposals will effectively prevent any new coal plants from being built. While it's not law yet that proposal will be effective in March no matter when it becomes law assuming it does become law. The mere threat of this regulation will prevent any coal plants from being built, until it's either taken off the table permanently or finalized there is going to be absolutely no movement to build new coal plants. Nobody in their right mind is going to invest in a coal plant with that hanging over their head.
It has certainly played a factor but it's not the only reason.
It's only been year that the cost of NG has dipped below the cost of coal, I'm not one to count my chickens before they hatch.
At the moment yes because NG has provided a nice buffer and as long as it can maintain a reasonable cost it's a very good thing, it remains to be seen if it will stay like that.
So you really are betting against NG? I wouldn't. Better to bet against gold than NG.
So you really are betting against NG? I wouldn't. Better to bet against gold than NG.
I'm not betting against it, it's obviously a huge resource that will be used extensively. My concerns are the uncertainties over the things I've already outlined. Now that there is large and stable supply the swings in the natural gas market of the past should not occur where you get really large spikes. Over the next few years the price will settle but what the price will be remains to be seen.
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As noted it wasn't until last year at this time that NG fell below the cost of coal. It's going to be interesting to see where the price goes this winter because it's just now approaching historical levels.
Last edited by thecoalman; 09-23-2012 at 11:02 PM..
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