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I know it will be difficult (almost impossible, really) to get exact figures, but I want to do a "sanity check" to make sure I'm being realistic.
I'm looking at a 1240 square foot older row home. Built in 1926. The home is in central Virginia (for cost estimates).
The home is 1240 sqft over 2 levels, with roughly 545 square feet per floor with a 150 sq ft 'bump-out' kitchen addition on the back. 2 bed, 1 bath (1.5 actually, more on that later). House has crawlspace with no basement.
The house is not a part of any historic district.
All work will be completed by licensed and insured contractor and subcontractors.
Here are my plans:
Necessary:
Roof repair: A complete roof replacement with replacement plywood and "slate-look" roof tile. The roof is about 800 square feet (the front is very high pitch to make the house look taller than it is, as was common with these rowhouses) but the rest is pretty flat.
Electrical upgrade: Upgrade to 200 amp with whole house rewire.
Fix ceilings damaged by leaky roofs: 2 sections of plaster ceiling about 2' by 2' each.
Desires:
Rip out plaster walls and ceilings and replace with drywall. I know..I know..why would I do this? The walls are really damaged in places and I'd just rather go with drywall. Plus pulling down the plaster will allow access for the electrician and possibly the plumber. [For the purposes of this, assume that the plaster does NOT contain any asbestos or lead paint.]
Eliminate half bath: There is a half bath under the stairs. This is kinda cool and quirky but completely unusable. The issue is that the bath is too close to the lower end of the stairs so no one (except maybe a child) could comfortable use it. I'd like to eliminate the half bathroom. (All of the other houses in the area are 2bd/1ba.)
Relocate hot water heater. Currently the hot water heater is in a closet area off of the kitchen. I'd rather it be in the spot under the stairs previously occupied by the hilariously small bathroom. Then I could convert that closet to a pantry
New kitchen floor: Some kind of natural stone. Nothing expensive just as long as its a matte/satin black color. (Something $10/sq ft or less + installation)
Kitchen cabinets/counters: About 12 linear feet of Ikea cabinets (up and down) with solid stone counter tops. Just a straight, one-wall kitchen layout.
Bathroom remodel: Bathroom is smallish (by some standards but plenty big for me) about 10'x6'. Just want tile floor (Something $10/sq ft or less + installation), drop in bath tub (floor tile continued around tub), white tile shower surround (maybe extend around room). Wall mounted sink (think old school house restroom) and basic white toilet.
The finishes will not be high end at all. I want them to be nice, but I know what I can and cannot afford.
All of the extras (light fixtures, appliances, etc) will not be included in this. Also, I'll do the painting to save a couple thousand dollars.
SOOOO...the budget:
Ahem...$40k.
I've seen nice-but-not-extravagant kitchens that cost more than that so naturally I'm worried.
Possible? Insane?
The thing I'm most worried about is the cost of the roof (I've heard anywhere from $5000-$15000) and the cost of the plaster (I've heard estimates as high as $15000 to remove plaster and install drywall).
Why not just get some consultations from contractors and really know?
Curious though, what the upgrade to 200 amps? What are you running in a 1200+ sq/ft house that comes close to even 1/3 of that? I get the extra for safety and such but 200 amps? Check on that cost because you might not need it.
On remodels like this, that with needs first and then wants.
Why not just get some consultations from contractors and really know?
Curious though, what the upgrade to 200 amps? What are you running in a 1200+ sq/ft house that comes close to even 1/3 of that? I get the extra for safety and such but 200 amps? Check on that cost because you might not need it.
On remodels like this, that with needs first and then wants.
I have a meeting with a consultant next week but want to get a ball park before I meet to know whether or not I'm at all reasonable.
The house has knob and tube wiring so I have to rewire that (terms of financing and insurance) so I figured I'd go with a 200 amp upgrade while I'm at it. Whether or not I'll need it, it's something people look for resell in the future (all of the listings for the nicer older houses in the city [which is most of the houses in the city] proudly declare "200 Amp Upgrade" as a selling feature).
This is a wildy open ended project which is impossible to even guestimate on here.
Row Home......just the issues of access, places to deliver and store materials and waste disposal could vary greatly.
When you start talking about a new roof on a 100 year old home, you could be talking about a myriad of issues from structural to sheething to drainage to, of course, new 'shingles'.
When you talk about gutting a couple of bathrooms, you get into the 'plumbing', which sounds like it could entail a complete new system from top to bottom--plus of course, the actuall bathroom finishes, furnishings, etc.
Installing a new electrical service, and ALL of the relevant electrical wiring inside the house, is a huge job in an old house. BUt, when you openthe walss to do plumbing, and electrical, and then:
...talk about stripping lath and paster to do a new sheetrock finish, well, you are basically talking about a gut job.
You are basically, if i understand your interest, talking about gutting this place and rehabbing it.
Back to the first item......access, availability, etc.
I would say that maybe you could get by for $100-$150 per square foot...depending..... You have gutting, structural, new systems (plumbing and electric) plus the final finishes.
This is a total SWAG, but half your $40 grand won't barely cover plans and permits if i understand what it is you would like to do.
Get estimates and include a 50% to 300% contingency. (100-150% is the most common over run IME). Our remodel overran by about 130% I think. I woudl have to go back and add it up, but that is probably close.
If you are going to tear out the plaster, then I suggest you use 5/8" reinforced commercial drywall. It is much more sturdy and has characteristics similar to plaster. The cost is really not that much more. If your contractor tells you it is a lot more, it is because they are not familiar with it and do not want to do it. Yes, it is more expensive, but not hugely so. The heavier drywall has better sound quality and it is stronger. I can put my fist right thought 1/2" drywall with no trouble. 5/8" reinforced take multiple blows with a hammer to even make a small hole. Plus with 5/8" you are not as likely to have your window and door casings and outlet boxes sticking way out of the walls when you are through. Plaster is ticker than drywall so unless you put spacers behind it, standard 3/8" or 1/2" is not going to work very well. Even 5/8" may require spacers. (or you can try to cut all of the door and window casings down)
I do not think your are close in your budget. You can probably get the roof wiring and ceiling/wall cracks repaired for that.
K & T wiring does not usually need replacement. It may limit your choices of insurance companies (but State Farm will insure it). I have not had nor hear of anyone having problems with financing. The lenders do not care as long as you have insurance form an A rated company (some do not even require an A rated company). If you re-wire, you will have to bring the electrical up to code. That means installing a lot of additional outlets whether you want them or not. It also means you will probably have to put in a hard wired smoke detector system (our Nanny government thinks we are too stupid to change batteries, so they have to mandate a hard wired system which often causes all kinds of problems because you cannot move the detector locations if the original location turns out to be bad for reasons you never thought of before).
I would leave the 1/2 bath. It is not hurting anything. We looked at a house like that. The 1/2 bath was useless for men at least part of the time but usable for women if not too tall and children. We woudl not have considered the house with only 1 bathroom, but with that little half bath, we decided we could live with it (ended up not buying it for a different reason, but we definitely woudl not have bought ti if it did not have that half bath). It is useful at times to have an extra bathroom even if of limited utility. Once you remove a bathroom like that, future buyers probably would not be allowed to put it back in (code violations). Thus, it could diminish the value to take it out, but it does not diminish the value to leave it in. Also removing it will reduce the appraised value.
If your current bathtub in the other bathroom is cast iron, it could be a mistake to replace it with a flimsey new plastic one. Both in terms of longevity/value and in terms of resale issues.
You can get a wall mounted sink at architectural salvage places for about $20 - $50 and they are not terribly difficult to instal if plumbing for a sink is there already. A small corner wall mounted sink can save a lot of room in a cramped bathroom space.
Painting is more difficult than you might think to do a decent job. I thought gee I have painted various walls, rooms and theater sets here and there, I can do this. I planned to paint our entire interior myself on nights and weekends with help form our family (7 people) and some friends (varied numbers who would work for pizza and beer) and budgeted $2000 for materials. I quickly discovered it woudl take me 870 years to complete all the painting, and I did not do anywhere nears as good a job as the professional painters (I got better as they taught me, but still never as good as them). We ended up with three crews. super professional very expensive painters for the common areas (parlors, dining room and kitchen), mid level for the master BR and some hallways and bathrooms. Discount painters or me in the kids bedrooms and basement rooms. I ended up painting one large room, the kitchen ceiling, part of the kitchen moldings, the mudroom, another basement bathroom and a hallway int he basement, two of the kids bedrooms upstairs (but the painters did the moldings) and one of the basement bedrooms. All said and done, the paint, primer and other materials (brushes, tape, cleaning supplies, trays, paint mixer, Spackle, and some other stuff) cost over $6000. The stuff for my part alone cost about $2000 and I painted only maybe 1000 s.f. of the interior space. The total bill was in the $40,000 range (it is a big house though). Painting is a surprise cost.
If you do this job as a Kmart blue light special, you may get it done for $100 - $120 K, but you will have a really crappy house like a flip house that smart buyers will stay away from. Many old house buyers know to watch out for poor quality materials, finishes, and fixtures. If they see cheap stuff, they know it will not last and the house will have to be redone very soon. If you live in the house for a few years, the cheap stuff will begin breaking and showing wear and you will have to re-do it before you can sell the house. Generally it does not pay to go with cheap materials. In the long run, it will cost more.
What you may want to do is prioritize and figure out what can you can now, and put the rest off for later. If you must replace plumbing or electrical, you need to do that first. That may eat up the entire budget by the time you get through the extras. If you have to open up the walls, that is a good time to add insulation. If you can avoid opening up the walls, or at least minimize the scope of plaster removal, that is much much better and a big cost savings. If you want to DIY, you may be better off learning to do plaster repairs and do that yourself. That is easy to learn and you may have a hard time finding someone who actually knows plaster. (We brought in a friend from Mexico where they still use plaster, everyone in our area who knew plaster work seemed to be dead).
I do nto think you will hit $40K with plans and permits. Our permits for our whole project were about $22,000 and the plans were pretty reasonable (about $2000 - - $3,000). But we added a good sized kitchen, mudroom and bath and had him draw up plans for finihhing the basement. You really do not need plans for remodeling.
Well thanks so much for the information from both of you! Very thoughtful responses.
Unfortunately, this whole plan may be dead in the water.
After submitting an offer (a little over asking) on the house, the sellers assured us that there was a 99% chance that they would accept our offer (though they hadn't signed it yet; they said they planned to sign it Monday [today]). They had a few people look at the house before me but no one had made an offer (after about 2 months on the market).
Well apparently last night (Sunday) someone visited the house and made an all cash offer that came in well below asking at a figure that was about 66% of our offer. The sticking point, it seems, was that they could close in 15 days with no inspections, while it would take me 30 days (+inspections, which would not have been a problem). Apparently they needed the money sooner than later.
Maybe it's for the best (even though it certainly doesn't feel that way).
House hunting isn't as fun as it looks on TV..haha.
It could be that your seller might actually have done you a favor. Seems like they are ready to settle for a LOT less money in order to avoid an inspection. That is a HUGE red flag that something is quite out of whack with this property--in addition to it being an old dog (no disrespect intended).
Quite honestly, the scope of the project which you described is best done as a full gut and remodel. There is just no way to completely re-do an eletrical system, for instance, in a house of that age without completely ripping it apart. Of course, while you are in there, you do the plumbing, and introduce other 'modern' systems--heat and air conditioning, for instance--all of which makes sense 'at the time', but drives the cost up quite dramamtically.
In the end i relaistically think you could have easily been into this project for a couple hundred thousand, plus your initial cost....and it is likely that you would have had a beautiful home, but one that you would unlikely ever see your money from if you chose to sell at some point.
In todays world it is very costly to build and/or rehab. Materials are very high, and good labor is not easy to find. It is a LOT cheaper to buy exisiting that is not in bad condition (but which also has a LOT less character) than it is to contrsturct yourself.
Sorry this seems to have faded, but it might be a blessing in disguise.
$40k is certainely on the low side and you could spend that just on materials BUT you dont have too..if you work hard at finding materials and fixtures you like and buy them at good prices then you just have to deal with labor cost..again $40k could easily be a quote just for labor for all this work..if you could do some yourself you could get the price lower..for quick estimates and a good cost breakdown for budgeting i use the remodel cost calcualtors
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 03-15-2014 at 10:19 PM..
Reason: Link Removed
$40k is certainely on the low side and you could spend that just on materials BUT you dont have too..if you work hard at finding materials and fixtures you like and buy them at good prices then you just have to deal with labor cost..again $40k could easily be a quote just for labor for all this work..if you could do some yourself you could get the price lower..for quick estimates and a good cost breakdown for budgeting i use the remodel cost calcualtors
Many contractors don't install customer supplied materials( i don't) light fixtures and ceiling fans yes but mostly nothing else. Too many problems come up with wrong/broken/missing materials and it holds me up then I have to charge more so they don't really save anything. They also don't get any warranty on customer supplied materials. When I supply it all they get a warranty of 2 years on materials a year longer then the manufacturer offers. Many contractors make money with material markups so if you take food off my table I just increase the labor rate. This is how the pros do it.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 03-15-2014 at 10:19 PM..
Many contractors make money with material markups so if you take food off my table I just increase the labor rate.
Given that you get a contractor discount on the materials (due to professional and volume discounts) -- would you say your markup to the customer for that material is MORE -- or still LESS than the customer could buy it for on their own??
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