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Truly, if there is something in the water, it is that people are being made SO fearful, SO frightened, that they willingly will walk into whichever regulatory prison presents itself, cheerfully lock the door and throw away the key.
Harry,
As someone who has dedicated a lifetime to the construction industry, and the last 20+ years understanding the construction codes I'm disappointed in your response. Recently, your state built an International Airport that had a sign that fell from the ceiling and killed a 10 year old boy. My guess is that it wasn't installed per plan & spec based on a similar lack of respect for a simple minimum life safety standard that you express.
Construction code is not a political statement, and or trying to take any right away from anybody. It is a standard that has been created and revised tri-annually by people who care about providing reasonable safe standards that have made America the world class country that we are.
A few years back we had a fire in a night club (can't remember where or when) where they had chained and locked the exits. Lives were lost in the fire that ensued that could have been spared had a simple portion of the code about exiting without key, or special knowledge. The United States has never had a major loss of life in fully sprinklered buildings, except the twin towers which was a different animal.
I'm not aware of Agenda 21, or any of the other subject matter you present in a thread about construction code. Trapper L expounded on a certain inspectors pet peeve, but they all have those. you fail once, but he won't get me again.
My father always taught me that if one seeks negativity in life, they're sure to find what they are looking for. Construction codes are in place to protect life safety #1, and too make sure people get a usable building whatever it's use may be.
People pump gas daily without a clue what goes into the design of this hazardous occupancy to protect everyone. We go to events at stadiums without an understanding of exiting requirements. Aren't those handrails nice on those steep steps. Do you think they were put there to be nice? Those doors in building that say exit will sound alarm, or the announcement system in a high rise telling you there's a fire. Or even a small code such as a water heater being placed 18" above the garage floor to keep fuel vapors from being ignited by a pilot light. Do you really think the under 25 year old kid installing these items gets this? Clearly the ones installing the sign in the Birmingham airport didn't.
Actually the above (post #12) pretty much says what I was going to say...
But how do building codes come to be in the first place? There is a horrible fire and many lives are lost... Then a PUBLIC outcry that this must not happen again! Building codes are then instituted to keep history from repeating itself. We learn as we go along to not repeat the same mistakes - or try not to.
So building codes are not in place because of "they", rather they are there because "we" demand such things after horrible disasters.
The airport sign was installed by a contractor, and it is pretty obvious that if it was not done to code (so much for the effectiveness of code), and/or it was not thought out. What with the electronics available today, I'm mildly surprised it was as massive as it was, but that is a different story.
Code, as I stated, has its purposes in urban environments where there are a lot of people and an error - ESPECIALLY in a public building - is going to create hazards. I think my previous post covered that. However... and this is the big however... the ossification of rules, lack of common sense or flexibility in inspection, and focus on existing products makes code compliance as much about knowing what the inspector will look at than any greater thought in design. In other words - code is a set of building rules for those who would cheap out, are too stupid to think of consequences, and those who want to build something fast. The rules play to the lowest common denominator without the needed flexibility for unusual situations.
There are times when code is exactly wrong, and if the inspector is hidebound then failure is the only option. Example - (and this goes back a number of years) code requires grounding of wiring as a safety protocol. There are any number of situations where it is impractical to follow the requirements. At any large AM radio station there are wires that feed antennas. Ground one and see how well the station works. There are other wires that are running low level audio in the micro and millivolt range. Ground both ends and you will have ground loops, and all sorts of technical issues. The same goes for hard wired PA systems. Go beyond a certain distance in a noisy environment and there are problems. Unless there is an inspector that understands electronics and RF propagation, good luck.
I know of one multimillion dollar building where one of the contractors accidentally ticked off the inspector and in retaliation the inspector found that a fire stairway that would serve exactly one person (a projectionist) was 1/32nd of an inch off from code in riser height. He delayed the CO long enough for concrete grinding and re-inspection that there was severe hardship.
The extremes we go to for safety are at times beyond the pale. I see single family dwellings with outside decks built two feet above the ground with 12" OC 10" x 2" framing, 8' total span. Do inspectors think the pet elephants are in danger? Code in Florida, which has hurricanes, is now beginning to dictate (if not by law, by insurance company guidelines) that roofs will now all be hip roofs. I have nothing against hip roofs, but entire communities where no variation is allowed without exorbitant cost and stress? That is a minor increase in safety at a great cost of variety and creativity. When I lived in south Florida, I was very careful to buy "approved" hurricane panels. Those panels are now no longer allowed because they don't have a Dade County seal of approval on them.
Don't tell me that all this clamping down on code is simply for safety. There is big money involved, and infrastructures in building departments where dozens of inspectors not only want to keep their jobs but get better paid as well. A section of corrugated steel of similar thickness is going to work just as well without a seal of approval. No wind I ever saw stopped to read labels.
Fire alarms. Don't get me even started on that. It is a good thing that movies are now digital. Code on fire alarms in movie theatres is that if there is a whiff of smoke ANYWHERE - ALL the projection equipment is tied in to shut it down, all air conditioning is stopped, and an annunciator comes on telling people to leave. Consider a twelve-plex with 200+ seat auditoriums on either side of a hallway 300 feet long. Dumping every auditorium, when a smoker has set off an alarm in an end auditorium is overkill. A kid who decided to play a prank gets to disturb not just one or two auditoriums, but sometimes over a thousand people at once. Before you say, "but what if the theatre was on fire?" I'd like to mention that theatres are now usually concrete block construction, the curtains (if any) are sometimes literally dripping wet with flame retardant, the seats are a hundred times less prone to toxic fumes and fire damage than your own bed, and exits can dump a theatre in a couple of minutes at most. Now - on TOP of that, code comes in and says "Gee, this isn't enough." Bull tickey. By dumping all auditoriums at once, with a non-stoppable annunciator blaring, there is NO WAY for a manager to maintain order and safety.
Some codes are extremely important - those fire exits make sense and public space load bearing rules for floors and walls are vital. Most of those important codes are already in place, without adding more bureaucracy.
"He has been told to cease and desist with public camps until the buildings are torn down or rebuilt with the violations rectified. The County has threatened to condemn the buildings. Conway’s primitive outhouses, kitchen, food storage facilities, and building construction do not meet State building codes. For example, his lumber was improperly marked and labeled."
There is a famous museum in Vermont, The Shelburne Museum, that also has buildings not to current code. Plimouth Plantation is also undoubtedly non-compliant.
I repeat my warning - current regulations, properly enforced within reason, are more than adequate. Adding more bureaucracy and codes and laws is not an answer to anything except draining taxpayer pockets.
The loss of private property rights is communism at best; bureaucracy by most. If the owner of real property wants to build, burn, hunt, manufacture, etc., etc., for him/herself by all means do it (uh, scratch that- have the right to do it)! The key word of that statement is "him/herself".
Mr. Conway would have probably lived his entire life in obscurity if not for being featured in the reality TV show. This obviously is what brought him all of the attention.
The issue I see from the AHJ is this:
Mr. Conway is conducting a "business" on his property. So, if the public is "invited" onto his property for the reason of conducting business, I can see the concern for the welfare of those persons (from the position of the AHJ).
Even if that "state bill" were to pass and Mr. Conway's property were to be exempt from current mandates/codes, is the person that is there to commence a business transaction being protected (by building codes)?
I don't see that as being devil's advocate as much as seeing the situation as a whole and asking a very good question. There is, of course, an answer that is already in use by cruise lines, airlines, theme parks and the like. It is called a purchase agreement. In such, you agree to recognize that there are dangers implicit in the place or product and hold the company/owner harmless under certain circumstances.
Otherwise... I feel certain that the airplanes flying over NC do not have properly functioning septic systems and leach fields as the passengers use the toilets. Perhaps all flights into and out of than code conscious state should be immediately stopped before the airplanes are impounded and destroyed.
The loss of private property rights is communism at best; bureaucracy by most. If the owner of real property wants to build, burn, hunt, manufacture, etc., etc., for him/herself by all means do it (uh, scratch that- have the right to do it)! The key word of that statement is "him/herself".
Mr. Conway would have probably lived his entire life in obscurity if not for being featured in the reality TV show. This obviously is what brought him all of the attention.
The issue I see from the AHJ is this:
Mr. Conway is conducting a "business" on his property. So, if the public is "invited" onto his property for the reason of conducting business, I can see the concern for the welfare of those persons (from the position of the AHJ).
Even if that "state bill" were to pass and Mr. Conway's property were to be exempt from current mandates/codes, is the person that is there to commence a business transaction being protected (by building codes)?
I agree with the intent of this statement. After watching him on Mountain Men, and then finding out weeks ago that his Turtle Island is a business that brings in 1000's annually. Point: I have no problem in backing him if the argument is over a grade stamp on lumber? However, something tells me that this is a much bigger issue, and the story is twisted to meet its own ends.
What person who wants to live off the land , creates a TV show? Sounds like an Attention seeker to me , hes milking this for the ratings and more $$$. He probably has a mansion or decent sized house somewhere else.
It is called a purchase agreement. In such, you agree to recognize that there are dangers implicit in the place or product and hold the company/owner harmless under certain circumstances.
That did cross my mind as I wrote my post-
But with a sue-happy society, anyone can sue anybody for anything. And with the conditions (or lack there of) of Mr. Conway's property, any major injury/death that were to occur on his property is sure to see a jury trial and a favorable ruling for the complaintant regardless of fine print, exclusions, etc.
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