Basement Waterproof or French Drain (subfloor, pools, water tank, tanks)
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There is no such thing as weatherproofing a basement. It cannot be done. Your basement cannot be made into a boat. If your basement is sitting in water, water will find a way in, You must get the water away.
We have a problem with water coming in despite a working french drain system. We looked at an interior drain but that would require ripping out the finished basement. Changing or improving the french drain system would require removing a lot of concrete, porches and a sunroom. Someone suggested digging a trench at the uphill side behind the house to find where the water is coming from, filling it with gravel to collect water before it gets to the house and then putting in an external sump pump. We are hoping this will wok
Yes, if you are down slope this can help. It's subsurface water movement that you can divert around the house with that type of french drain
What kind of porch- elevated wood framed? Or concrete slab/stone?
Is the porch covered/roof?
If the porch is elevated wood framed, what's the grade like UNDER the porch? And around the porch's immediate perimeter?
If the porch has a roof is it guttered? And where do the downspout(s) dump?
I've seen this scenario a lot- house gets a rough grade, the porch gets built, then when it's time for final grade oh, guess what- can't get under the porch to correct- dah!
Your house (built in 1928) could be block or stone; highly unlikely to be a poured foundation.
The porch is concrete slab/stone. It has a roof that is guttered. The downspout dumps water far away from the house at a lower elevation. The porch is an entry way to the house. If anything, I would avoid tear it apart to do the waterproofing.
Typically when we do basements we do both waterproofing the walls and french drains.
The waterproofing applied to the concrete is simply so the concrete wont absorb it. This is ok, but wont move the water away from the basement. It could have the affect of forcing the water to another spot that they miss or cant get to.
The french drains with gravel and pipes allow subsurface water to travel quickly away from the basement wall especially if you have clay soil which acts like a sponge. Ideally the french drain pipes would be able to gravity flow to a lower elevation where you wouldnt need a sump pump. If thats not possible then you just need a spot inside than can be prepped to house the pump at a location lower than the floor ideally.
Keep in mind also where a house sits is very important too. If your house is downslope or in areas that have rock or limestone formations, water travels underground and can have nothing or little to do with whats happening around your house.
I am worried that waterproofing will force the water to another spot of basement wall that cannot be waterproofed. Then I will be wasting money to do waterproof.
On the other hand, the water seeping in is from the middle to top part of the basement wall. Will french drain that locates at the bottom of the basement wall be effective? Thanks!
Did ANY of them discuss gutters, downspouts and foundation grading?
Start there.
If water has found it's way in once... it'll find it's way again.
This is where the perimeter trench, drain tile, sump and pump come into play.
Have a place for the water to go... and way to get it out.
That's the second step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgkg
Yes, the gutters, downspouts and foundation are all in good condition. So your suggestion is to do perimeter trench and sump pump instead of waterproofing from the outside?
You can't waterproof from the outside, only reduce water infiltration. Unless as Rational stated, you don't insure water is diverted away from the foundation, waterproofing efforts are stop gap at best.
Even if your gutters and downspouts are in good order that doesn't mean they are effective. Then, as he stated, check grading. Your foundation could appear fine but unless you trenched underneath how can you tell? If its a slab it isn't like you can just look and tell as you could with a crawlspace.
Unless your house is sitting on top of a hill, water is draining toward your house from somewhere and even with elevation unless your basement is above the grade, water to flowing toward it, not away from it. That is one reason for the drain and sump pump if necessary. Your house might sit on a elevation a few feet above the natural grade but your basement might be 5 feet below it. All it would take is a neighbor over watering up natural grade to create a bad situation for you.
A cheap way to tell is to dig text holes away but up natural grade from your foundation to check on how much water to getting there. You can do that all around to see differences. Just takes a little bit of effort.
Then catch rain fall from the downspouts and measure the volume. You want to drain all that away from and around toward the natural downgrade. If all your spouts just direct to water up the natural grade almost guaranteed it is coming right back, underground and at about basement level.
You can also spend a few bucks to have a soils engineer conduct an evaluation. A good landscape architect could probably help there too or instead. Soil type is identified, a site plan of your property is made to determine how the house sits relative to natural grades. Checks can be made of any known underground springs/streams and then you can better decide what to do.
Sooner than later though. Most deficiencies can be corrected for a lot less than you think. Diverting water is much easier and less costly that trying to water proof or just stand up to water. You can do much of the work yourself if so inclined and able. If not, hiring some ditch diggers who don't moonlight as demolition experts can help with the trenching. Nothing magical about French Drains. You can buy them pre-made and they go in easily. A laser level to check and insure downward flow makes it fool proof. You don't want a underground waterfall because that causes erosion, just a nice gradual pitch down and away from the foundation and in a direction not up natural grade. Where that isn't possible, a catch basin and sump pump.
You can't waterproof from the outside, only reduce water infiltration. Unless as Rational stated, you don't insure water is diverted away from the foundation, waterproofing efforts are stop gap at best.
Even if your gutters and downspouts are in good order that doesn't mean they are effective. Then, as he stated, check grading. Your foundation could appear fine but unless you trenched underneath how can you tell? If its a slab it isn't like you can just look and tell as you could with a crawlspace.
Unless your house is sitting on top of a hill, water is draining toward your house from somewhere and even with elevation unless your basement is above the grade, water to flowing toward it, not away from it. That is one reason for the drain and sump pump if necessary. Your house might sit on a elevation a few feet above the natural grade but your basement might be 5 feet below it. All it would take is a neighbor over watering up natural grade to create a bad situation for you.
A cheap way to tell is to dig text holes away but up natural grade from your foundation to check on how much water to getting there. You can do that all around to see differences. Just takes a little bit of effort.
Then catch rain fall from the downspouts and measure the volume. You want to drain all that away from and around toward the natural downgrade. If all your spouts just direct to water up the natural grade almost guaranteed it is coming right back, underground and at about basement level.
You can also spend a few bucks to have a soils engineer conduct an evaluation. A good landscape architect could probably help there too or instead. Soil type is identified, a site plan of your property is made to determine how the house sits relative to natural grades. Checks can be made of any known underground springs/streams and then you can better decide what to do.
Sooner than later though. Most deficiencies can be corrected for a lot less than you think. Diverting water is much easier and less costly that trying to water proof or just stand up to water. You can do much of the work yourself if so inclined and able. If not, hiring some ditch diggers who don't moonlight as demolition experts can help with the trenching. Nothing magical about French Drains. You can buy them pre-made and they go in easily. A laser level to check and insure downward flow makes it fool proof. You don't want a underground waterfall because that causes erosion, just a nice gradual pitch down and away from the foundation and in a direction not up natural grade. Where that isn't possible, a catch basin and sump pump.
Hi Mack, thanks for the education. What type of contractor is an expert in checking grading? I definitely need some help from these experts. I found three basement guys from Angie's list with great reviews. They either suggest french drain or outside waterproof without checking the grade carefully.
You don't need or want a contractor. You want a hardscape designer or architect. This is because a contractor performs the work to build what is already designed. While a contractor can probably build a house without plans, the result will probably be anything but what you want.
When planning and designing the hardscape for drainage, there are going to be some calculations needed based on soil type and water volume to be encountered. It might seem like making mountains out of molehills but if that was done properly before, you wouldn't be having problems now. Likewise, any contractor can put in a driveway but they aren't usually qualified to do more than guess or eyeball things like drainage.
Get hold of a structural engineer. Ask them for a few recommendations for hardscape designers. Invite them to stop by for a review and proposal. That is the trick, get several proposals and compare the promised results. On their part, there shouldn't be a lot of guesswork, the factors involved are a science. What differentiates one from another are how they approach the work, how much they will charge for it and how they go about making certain expectations are met.
With several proposals in hand, compare them. Much of it will be common sense so you don't need to the rocket scientist in the crowd to figure it out.
Then pick the one you think will do the best job and ask them to consult if you plan on doing the work yourself. They can write the plan (no plan equals failure) and then review stages of the work to make sure everything is as it should be.
One last thing, another reason you don't want to rely on a contractor to do the planning is because you the homeowner are liable for the results. It isn't a simple matter of draining water away from the foundation, it is making sure you are diverting water and causing someone else a problem because you'll pay dearly for that.
A good hardscape designer/architect will get a soil analysis done and zero in on the best approach to solving the problem. They should also be able to pinpoint if someone else has caused a grading issue that now affects you. Sometimes you upgrade neighbor has decided to put in a retaining wall or other hardscape design that directs water where is wasn't draining before. If that is the case and they didn't have a permit, you can seek a remedy. If it was done by permit, then you might check with the permit authority because that would be a flaw and something they might have to fix for you.
I am worried that waterproofing will force the water to another spot of basement wall that cannot be waterproofed. Then I will be wasting money to do waterproof.
On the other hand, the water seeping in is from the middle to top part of the basement wall. Will french drain that locates at the bottom of the basement wall be effective? Thanks!
I dont agree with Mack, but continuing with our discussion, yes a French drain done correctly will do what you want it too, but keep in mind....with new construction you would build basement, then fully waterproof basement exterior and the install French drains. Often times the gravel bed for French drain would extend well beyond halfway up wall, so any ground water would would hit water proofing or gravel and travel down easily to drain pipes at bottom of wall below floor level. That's ideal, not sure how close you can get to that, but I would learn from the basement contractors or water proofing experts. Simultaneously you can look at grading, gutters etc, but it's possible with sub grade water that it's traveling from off site.
We have a 40's bungalow in AK that had serious water infitration in the basement. Like the OP our water seeped in primarily into the middle third of the wall, the upper section of buried wall, rather than coming in from below along the slab. We started withremoving trees/plants too close to the foundation adding guttering and downspouts and that helped but the house was improperly graded so when it came time to replace the sewer line we bit the bullet, hand trenched the foundation walls we could get to, cleaned it and applied a water shield product on the walls and over the footings (a very sticky rolled tar matting with tar adhesives) and we had a landscaping company istall a curtain drain and swale to divert the uphill water to the front lower area and finally after the walls were bone dry inside we used a waterproofing paint on the basement walls and voila! a very dry basement. We have had record snows, record rains since then and zero water or any type of moisture inside.
Yes, if they told you it will last and continue keeping water out for any period of time, it is. Basements are not boats. You will never keep the water out permanently. You have to take the water away from the basement.
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