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Old 02-07-2014, 09:14 PM
 
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This is a Pixi light, right? They make separate fixtures for 120 and 240, they're not interchangable. The 240 is also a 4000K color temperature instead of 2700K for the residential. And the 2x2 version is near-impossible to install.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:25 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,418,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie1278 View Post
If it's just a black and a white it sounds like it can be wired 120 or 240.

I don't make fun of DIYers most people DIY lots of stuff in life not just electrical work. I just don't understand why people want to attempt to do work with something as dangerous as electrical work. I could care less if people paint, put laminate floor down stuff like that. You wont kill someone or burn a house down from a bad paint job. By the way you don't need to put "pros" in quotation marks like it's bad to be a trained professional at something.
First, I thank you for not making fun of DIY'ers, as many of the people who use these skills as a profession view DIY'ers as either incompetent or a threat to their own income stream. One advantage we have as DIY'ers is that we are not on a time clock... so we can spend a lot more time doing it right, rather that 'legal and fast'.
Some of the things you mentioned are also not the safest things in the world. Xylene paints or anything with a volatile solvent, certain tube-gun glues are really explosive... it all boils down to knowing what you are dealing with... none of this 'pro' stuff education is a prerequisite. Just read and know what you are doing.
When I was a kid, we did tons of electrical work as amateur radio operators (and built all our own equipment for fun, so from another poster here, I am not a professional, only a DIY'er). Not to digress too badly, but the rules were really simple. For an RF output amp, 3kV at an ampere or so is instantly lethal (Eimac ceramic tubes were my friend). Keep one hand in your pocket when playing with it. A poor design will cause the amp to explode, if it breaks into oscillation. The step-up xformer was over a cubic foot, and I could barely pick it up. The capacitor was the size of a big suitcase, and the matching network needed vacuum variables and roller inductors. (Old school here).
Also to digress, the whole 'apprentice' concept is ridiculous if you can demonstrate competency in the rules, the methods of installation, and the ability to do proper calculations, give me the license. I am no electrician, but the physics behind electricity and its installation I am rock-solid (not commercial, because I couldn't care less).

We built a Jacob's ladder, about 3 feet tall in the garage (under a glass dome, but only ran it about twice, as it wipes out RF communication for quite a distance, and UV isn't exactly good for you).

This is a thread about electrical idiocy from HD... but also a forum where people should express their opinions.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:07 PM
 
2,994 posts, read 5,550,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
First, I thank you for not making fun of DIY'ers, as many of the people who use these skills as a profession view DIY'ers as either incompetent or a threat to their own income stream. One advantage we have as DIY'ers is that we are not on a time clock... so we can spend a lot more time doing it right, rather that 'legal and fast'.
Some of the things you mentioned are also not the safest things in the world. Xylene paints or anything with a volatile solvent, certain tube-gun glues are really explosive... it all boils down to knowing what you are dealing with... none of this 'pro' stuff education is a prerequisite. Just read and know what you are doing.
When I was a kid, we did tons of electrical work as amateur radio operators (and built all our own equipment for fun, so from another poster here, I am not a professional, only a DIY'er). Not to digress too badly, but the rules were really simple. For an RF output amp, 3kV at an ampere or so is instantly lethal (Eimac ceramic tubes were my friend). Keep one hand in your pocket when playing with it. A poor design will cause the amp to explode, if it breaks into oscillation. The step-up xformer was over a cubic foot, and I could barely pick it up. The capacitor was the size of a big suitcase, and the matching network needed vacuum variables and roller inductors. (Old school here).
Also to digress, the whole 'apprentice' concept is ridiculous if you can demonstrate competency in the rules, the methods of installation, and the ability to do proper calculations, give me the license. I am no electrician, but the physics behind electricity and its installation I am rock-solid (not commercial, because I couldn't care less).

We built a Jacob's ladder, about 3 feet tall in the garage (under a glass dome, but only ran it about twice, as it wipes out RF communication for quite a distance, and UV isn't exactly good for you).

This is a thread about electrical idiocy from HD... but also a forum where people should express their opinions.
I'm never threatened from the DIY crowd and garage tinkerers. I do this for a living and make nice money and love what I do. Fixing DIY work and work from other unqualified people is the bulk of my business.

I don't have to rush because I'm getting paid for every minute that it takes to complete the job properly.
The guys who rush are the ones that undercharge and know they are losing money but that's another topic.

There have been backyard mechanics ever since the automobile was invented did they hurt the auto repair shops? Not one bit. Why? Because there is always something a DIYer can't do and they need to call the pros. They also don't have the tools to do it. Also not everyone is mechanically inclined. I see lots of younger people growing up today that don't even know how change a tire let alone know the first thing about electric work...but they know all about "smart" phones LOL!
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:51 AM
 
4,761 posts, read 14,210,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
...One advantage we have as DIY'ers is that we are not on a time clock... so we can spend a lot more time doing it right, rather that 'legal and fast'...
I agree!

Note for DIY'ers... There is a BIG safety advantage to doing electrical work in a home to "code". There are certain rare and not so rare situations [malfunctions] which come up that can be quite dangerous.

The electrical code is designed so people install things in a manner which makes the electrical system safe, but also makes it safe should certain malfunctions occur. Or certain multiple malfunctions occur.

One common problem I have seen is that the main ground wire for the electrical system comes loose or is disconnected.

Another common problem is that a main neutral wire or the neutral wire going to a subpanel (2nd circuit breaker panel) will come loose (open neutral), and with the case of a subpanel, it was not wired with a 4th ground wire.

Then the last element of our "disaster waiting to happen" is an appliance has a short from hot to its metal case and someone touches the metal case (ZAP!).

The electrical code has years and years of electrical accident prevention built into it. A lot of thought has gone into how each part of an electrical system is installed. So DIY'er, electrician, rocket scientist, whatever... Follow the code, fully read manufacturer's instructions for installing each electrical device, get an electrical permit, have your work inspected, then you will have a much safer electrical system!

Note: You can see future NEC (electrical code) rules being proposed here (no one agrees on anything it seems )...
Proposals/Comments for the next NEC cycle

Last edited by Billy_J; 02-08-2014 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:00 PM
 
10,218 posts, read 19,094,071 times
Reputation: 10880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_J View Post
The electrical code is designed so people install things in a manner which makes the electrical system safe, but also makes it safe should certain malfunctions occur. Or certain multiple malfunctions occur.
Maybe the code of a few years or decades ago. Nowadays there's a lot of gold-plating in there which makes small (or nonexistent) increases in safety for large increases in cost and flexibility. GFCIs everywhere, not just wet locations. AFCIs. Greatly increased requirements for numbers of outlets (ostensibly 'for safety' so people don't use extension cords). Tamper resistant outlet requirements. Requirements for lockouts on residential dishwasher circuits. I'm sure there's more.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:29 PM
 
2,994 posts, read 5,550,197 times
Reputation: 4690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_J View Post
I agree!

Note for DIY'ers... There is a BIG safety advantage to doing electrical work in a home to "code". There are certain rare and not so rare situations [malfunctions] which come up that can be quite dangerous.

The electrical code is designed so people install things in a manner which makes the electrical system safe, but also makes it safe should certain malfunctions occur. Or certain multiple malfunctions occur.

One common problem I have seen is that the main ground wire for the electrical system comes loose or is disconnected.

Another common problem is that a main neutral wire or the neutral wire going to a subpanel (2nd circuit breaker panel) will come loose (open neutral), and with the case of a subpanel, it was not wired with a 4th ground wire.

Then the last element of our "disaster waiting to happen" is an appliance has a short from hot to its metal case and someone touches the metal case (ZAP!).

The electrical code has years and years of electrical accident prevention built into it. A lot of thought has gone into how each part of an electrical system is installed. So DIY'er, electrician, rocket scientist, whatever... Follow the code, fully read manufacturer's instructions for installing each electrical device, get an electrical permit, have your work inspected, then you will have a much safer electrical system!

Note: You can see future NEC (electrical code) rules being proposed here (no one agrees on anything it seems )...
Proposals/Comments for the next NEC cycle
It will take me all day for me to reply to this so I will keep it short. Like they say DIYers know enough to be dangerous The NEC code book is not for DIYers it is for qualified trained electricians.

Article 90.1 NEC
(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons"

Also throughout the code book many articles state installations must be done by qualified people.

NEC definition of a qualified person:
Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related
to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installations and has received safety training
to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.


I doubt the NEC considers people who have swapped out some light fixtures or changed an outlet as a qualified person. Also a DIYer has not received safety training.

Also you need to know electrical theory, all the terminology, materials and equipment and know how to interpret the codes. The code book is not written in layman's terms for obvious reasons.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:48 PM
 
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As I recall, when I took the test for my license, it was around 20 pages long, covered most of the code book and took about 3 to 4 hours to complete. There is a reason for knowing what you're doing when working on electricity. I saw some pretty amazing things when called in to repair something a DIY had installed. Plus another reason for doing the work according to the code is that so the next person working on the system can easily follow the previous work.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:41 AM
 
8,782 posts, read 6,119,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
By definition:"In narrow usage, not all expertise is considered a profession. Although sometimes referred to as professions, occupations such as skilled construction and maintenance work are more generally thought of as trades or crafts. The completion of an apprenticeship is generally associated with skilled labor or trades such as carpenter, electrician, mason, painter, plumber and other similar occupations. A related distinction would be that a professional does mainly mental or administrative work, as opposed to engaging in physical work.
Versus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrtechno View Post
I have come to believe that a "professional" is someone who does something for a living, getting paid for it as opposed to an amateur who does the same thing for enjoyment.

We have professional ball players and we have amateur ball players.
We have professional actors and we have amateur actors.
We have professional carpenters and we have amateur carpenters.

The professional and amateur status, IMHO, has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their skills.
I define a professional as someone who has completed certified training or education in their specialty and gets paid for their services. Professional versus non-professional has nothing to do with white collar versus blue collar.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:44 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,418,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtkinsonDan View Post
Versus...



I define a professional as someone who has completed certified training or education in their specialty and gets paid for their services. Professional versus non-professional has nothing to do with white collar versus blue collar.
Not to go into a lengthy diatribe that is not answering the OP's question... but...

Me thinks we are in violent agreement. (though I disagree with the 'payment' part, as the best I have ever seen are not in it for the money). I have had the opportunity to work with some worst 'professionals', (which I had no remorse laying them off, or hinting that they should move on), and frighteningly good amateurs.. to the point it scared me as to how talented they were, yet they did it because they enjoyed it, not for a paycheck. Guess who I hired?
I will admit, since I am an amateur at metalworking, it will take me 10 times as long to cut a miniature gas turbine blade than a pro, but in the end, it will be just as balanced, spin the same speeds safely, generate just as much thrust.... and I am a hack. Material costs for each of us; about the same. Labor costs (if I were at a job expecting production, probably 50 times worse for me.) But we DIY'ers do it for 1). Fun. 2). technical challenge 3). Ego trip, to prove we can do it.

The whole 'certified training or education in their specialty' is entry criteria, but does not mean the individual is someone I would hire. It goes WAY beyond that.

Building something to 'code' (whatever it is), just meets the minimum requirements to be legal. So let's keep the bar low, and squeeze by . Some (actually many of us) don't think that meeting bare minimum standards is acceptable (engineer side of me coming out).

I read on this thread all about 'handling the fault condition'.... Home/business wiring is a cakewalk compared to medical equipment. If the stuff we designed had a fault, it would likely kill the patient. For some reason the FDA gets annoyed at that

So I respect your definition of professional, don't entirely agree with all of it, but if someone as unskilled as I am can master it, then by my definition that is not a professional, and I go back to the definition I posted (which was taken from Wiki, and perhaps should provided a link or copyright notice, to maintain CD rules).

'Nuff said.
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:01 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,418,978 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrtechno View Post
I have come to believe that a "professional" is someone who does something for a living, getting paid for it as opposed to an amateur who does the same thing for enjoyment.

We have professional ball players and we have amateur ball players.
We have professional actors and we have amateur actors.
We have professional carpenters and we have amateur carpenters.

The professional and amateur status, IMHO, has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their skills.
So to summarize that definition, "Pay me, regardless how incompetent I am, if I am a 'professional', otherwise I am an amateur hack".
What a great way to really p*ss off some extremely talented people. No flames please. Just my interpretation. Correct me if I am wrong.
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