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I just found a bizarre mold on the floor next to the toilet. I think it's a mold anyway, it's not like any I've seen before.
This is black and for the most part, completely dry. When I threw the tissue I wiped it up with into the toilet, it spread out immediately as if it were spores dispersing.
I used to work for a company that specialized in mold remediation. I learned there that the black molds are the most toxic.
Now I'm wondering if this mold has any bearing on why I had so many allergy symptoms earlier in the year.
Location: Sometimes Maryland, sometimes NoVA. Depends on the day of the week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladysrodgers
I used to work for a company that specialized in mold remediation. I learned there that the black molds are the most toxic.
Did you also learn how to distinguish between all the types of black molds? For example, run-of-the-mill mildew can be black and a mold. I've seen people freak out thinking they had "toxic mold" when it was just plain ol' mildew. A family member of mine is a fungus expert (don't ask ). I rang her up when I found black mold all over the bathroom of house I just bought. I wish I still had the email she sent in response. Basically, she laughed at most of the "black mold" hype and said to bleach it down. Not that toxic mold doesn't exist, but its not as common as some would have you believe. And not that visible mold is good.
That said, if you have mold allergies, it could be triggering them.
Rubytue is correct, and even the term “toxic mould” has no basis in science or mycology, but rather the term “toxic mould” was a recent creation of news media to sensationalize what is otherwise a very mundane occurrence. The term “toxic mould” is used almost exclusively by charlatans and snake-oil salesmen engaged in fear mongering for profit. Usually at the heart of the fear mongering is a very common, ordinary everyday mould called Stachybotrys atra. The term “toxic mould” has no scientific definition and is never used by legitimate scientists or knowledgeable health service providers.
Approximately three months ago, the prestigious International Union of Toxicology held an International Congress of Toxicology meeting in Montreal, Canada. The opening line from one of the presentations (1) given during that meeting of internationally recognized toxicologists, representing the global scientific and medical opinion in such matters was:
Despite the findings of learned bodies, there continue to be concerns throughout North America and Northern Europe about mycotoxins from mold spores in indoor environments.
In general, as scientists, we are not mystified about the health effects of moulds so much as mystified about the public’s continued irrational fear of indoor moulds, in spite of the vast, overwhelming knowledge that has placed those risks into perspective, and have concluded that those fears are unfounded.
At the heart of the unfounded public fear are “black moulds” in general but there is no significance or specific toxicity associated with the color of a mould. White moulds, pink moulds, and green moulds may all be black at some point of their life cycle upon subsequent death and oxidation. The term “black mould” like the term “toxic mould” is without definition.
Generally, anyone who is called a “Certified Mould Inspector” (or similar term) usually has virtually no training in mycology – and they are the ones who run around and collect useless mould “samples” and perform meaningless “mould tests.”
In any event, it is not likely that the material you described is even a mould at all.
If you are interested in learning something (scientific) about moulds, you can visit my site wherein I have several discussions. Just go to Forensic Industrial Hygiene and follow the links.
I hope the info is useful.
[Mod Cut]
Last edited by ontheroad; 02-17-2008 at 01:53 PM..
Reason: Signature violation.
Generally, anyone who is called a “Certified Mould Inspector” (or similar term) usually has virtually no training in mycology – and they are the ones who run around and collect useless mould “samples” and perform meaningless “mould tests.”
I am sooo glad that I didn't fork over that $3,000 that some mould company wanted to charge me to clean my studs. After I gutted the place I bleached and then sanded each stud a bit and then purchased that coating and sprayed it myself. I was skeptical about all this mould remidiation stuff. After Hurricane Betsy everyone scrubbed down the studs with bleach so I just figured why knock what worked back when.
As this hysteria about mold continues to develop (sorry for the pun), the one thing that seems to be over-looked is, why now?
Well, that answer lies in our quest for a more energy efficient home. With building codes striving for more energy efficiency, we've made our homes more weather tight (counties and municipalities now require that all penetrations in exterior walls be sealed, all penetrations through top and bottom wall plates be sealed [plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc.], all floor penetrations [plumbing, etc.] be sealed. So, consequently we are trapping moisture in the house.
We've created our own monster. There is plenty of info about what it looks like, how to remediate, where you'll most likely find it- but no one is willing to say why.
A Brief Guide to Mold, Moisture, and Your Home | Mold | Indoor Air Quality | Air | US EPA (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/molds/moldguide.html - broken link)
Even the government.
Now that the problem is evident- in our cost for more energy efficiency, we need to include an air exchanger to the ventilation system.
As this hysteria about mold continues to develop (sorry for the pun), the one thing that seems to be over-looked is, why now?
Well, that answer lies in our quest for a more energy efficient home. With building codes striving for more energy efficiency, we've made our homes more weather tight (counties and municipalities now require that all penetrations in exterior walls be sealed, all penetrations through top and bottom wall plates be sealed [plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc.], all floor penetrations [plumbing, etc.] be sealed. So, consequently we are trapping moisture in the house.
We've created our own monster. There is plenty of info about what it looks like, how to remediate, where you'll most likely find it- but no one is willing to say why.
A Brief Guide to Mold, Moisture, and Your Home | Mold | Indoor Air Quality | Air | US EPA (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/molds/moldguide.html - broken link)
Even the government.
Now that the problem is evident- in our cost for more energy efficiency, we need to include an air exchanger to the ventilation system.
also if your building that tight of a envelope. you need to have the HVAC properly down-sized.
The ONLY reason that the government doesn't recognise "toxic mold" is due to the fact that it would cost them millions, if not billions in additional health care costs. I AM A MTOXIC MOLD SURVIVOR! The tests that I've had over the last year weren't for FUN! Yes, there are SOME people who jump to the wrong conclusion, but it doesn't make it any LESS real. Don't fool yourselves. I lived in an apartment complex in Anaheim Hills, "Canyon Village" it was built in the early 70's, and owned and operated by a Management company, who kept it up beautifully, on the outside. Unfortunately, the plumbing was not. The management company hired in "cheap" labor, in other words, they gave room and board and a small salary to "unqualified workers", who had no knowledge of plumbing, but were able to do other kinds of repairs for the property. When my upstairs neighbors kitchen garbage disposal back up, (the first time, which was thanksgiving 2 years ago) it rained down through my kitchen ceiling, and I was expected to clean it up. It ruined my computer which was adjacent to the kitchen bar area. The maintenance man put a bandaid on the problem and said the smell in my apartment should go away in a few days. The second, third and fourth times, it not only came down from the ceiling, it came up my sink, dishwasher, and cracked the pipe in the wall adjacent to my livingroom. All of which I was expected to clean up. I was ankle high in food sewage! Since my computer was ruined after the first flood, I had put my two little birds and their cage in that same corner, thinking the problem was fixed, EACH TIME. My birds got extreamly sick and so did I. The smell of mold never went away, it made us sick to our stomaches and everyone that came over got headaches and started feeling sick. I had repeatedly complained to the management company, even sending "registered letters" to their corp. office, as it stated to do in my lease, they just laughed. I was taken to the ER twice, and was given injections to re-open my throat that had swollen shut. I was put on high doses of steroids for over three months due to the pain in my body and the sever breathing problems I developed. In addition, I was put on three inhaled steroids, broke out in little ***** bumps all over, my eye sight started deteriorated and I had headaches, and short term memory loss, NONE of which I had ever had before! I complained so much, the maintenance man finally went upstairs and found the pipe in the wall had broken and had been dumping food waster into our livingroom wall for three months! They finally called a "Certified Plumber" to fix the pipe, but DID NOT remove the waste and "Toxic mold" from the molded food,that had been growing inside our livingroom wall. I moved my sick birds to my bedroom.
After complaining to the Enviromental Health Department and the City of Anaheim Code Enforcement for three months, the management company sent out their "Risk Managment Specialist". Even after he smelled the horrible smell in our house and saw under the carpet where it was wet and moldy, He proceeded to have the maintenance man drill holes into our livingroom wall, right where the mold was. Then they brought in an industrial "Dehumidifier", and told us that we didn't have to leave, it was safe and there was no threat to our health. They instructed us to leave it on for 24 hours. We asked them to vent the air outside, they refused, saying it was safe. Within two hours, my throat swelled shut and we were back in the Er. The Er doctor said that the white spores that were spewing out into our apartment, which we inhaled, probably contained "MYCO-TOXINS", which would explain our symptoms. The doctor said NOT to return to the apartment, but our management company refused to put us up anywhere. They also refused to clean up, or "REMEDIATE" the mold, even after they were caught lying to the Code Enforcement and the Enviromental Health dept. and FINED!
We purchased "Particulate masks" and taped off our livingroom and kitchen and lived in our bedrooms. Finally, after contacting the Fair Housing of OC and filing a complaint and deducting money for everyday we could not fully utilize our dwelling, the management PAID to have us moved. They never reimbursed us for the computer, damaged by the water intrusion, and they refused to reimburse us for the couch and area rug which were exposed to mold and were no reuseable, (According to the Enviromental Health Dept.)
The management company finally agreed to reimburse us for the items damaged, BUT ONLY if we would sign a "COMPLETE RELEASE OF ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, NOW AND IN THE FUTURE, RELATING TO THE PROPERTY, IT'S EMPLOYEE'S AND OWNERS AND ANY AND ALL CITY AND COUNTY AND INSURANCE AGENCY'S".
When we refused to sign it, we were evicted. Thank GOD for those who don't believe everything they hear!
MOLD, "TOXIC MOLD" IS REAL, AND IT CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE IN WAYS YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE!
We are now pursuing legal action, and because I have been disabled since 1991, after being hit by a drunk driver, I have incurred high "Medi-Care" bills, which we will be seeking reimbursement for also.
JUST A NOTE: The apartment I referred to with the mold..... was NEVER cleaned and repaired... they move two elderly people into it, the lady was in a wheelchair, and her husband had respiratory problems already!
You must be one of the few with strong allergic reactions to mold. I am sorry to hear everything you had to go through.
Mold at the levels you described should be mitigated, but flecks of mold on joists or a bit in the bathroom doesn't warrant the sensationalism it receives. In fact, that waters down the gravity of the real situations.
There are some good comments, but also some myths that need to be addressed.
K'ledgeBldr:
I think I see where you are going with that line of thought, but from a practical perspective, more efficient homes are not the reason that mould is suddenly on the public’s radar (and by the way, it hit its peak about five years ago, and now it has steadily been going off the radar, as more and more people are finding out that there is no such thing as “toxic mould” and the whole thing was a media bug-a-boo).
Even particularly “tight” houses still have an overall air exchange of 3 to 7 air changes per hour which is more than enough to remove excessive water. But, undoubtedly, there is much more mould in today’s houses than before, so the explanation must lie elsewhere – enter the “hygric buffering capacity.”
Each structure has the ability to squirrel away moisture to some degree. Once that capacity is exceeded the water becomes “available” for moulds to use. The ability to “store” that water is known as the structure’s “hygric buffer.” The buffering capacity can be described as the amount of water the structure can store without becoming available. (I’d be happy to explain “water availability” if anyone is interested. )
When houses were built of stone and masonry, the water loading within an house (the hygric buffering capacity) was very large (on the order of say, 500 gallons for a 1,500 square foot house). Then, as houses became built of dimensional lumber, the water capacity of the assembly decreased by perhaps an order of magnitude. That is, the moisture was still in the environment of the structure, but now 450 gallons of that moisture had no place to go. Then, as houses were built out of drywall, steel studs, steel joists, OSB, particle board and hard board, the water capacity of the assembly fell by another order of magnitude (by some estimates).
Where is that 495 gallons of excess moisture going to go? Answer: It is still there, but now because of the concept known as “available water,” I mentioned earlier, the structure is at saturation and mould and other macrofungi grows on any available food source.
As such, we don’t see mould problems in the older, 1910’s to 1950’s plaster and lathe structures with earthen crawlspaces nearly to the same extent as the 1980’s to present structures with OSB, steel joists, TJIs, and vapor barriers since the older homes have massively larger hygric buffering capacities than the newer homes.
Comments about Mold Survivor’s post:
The comments of this poster can be difficult to address since there is a certain psychological profile that deeply desires to be a victim; and mould provides (in their mind) the perfect vehicle to victim hood, since they presume that mould is as mysterious to everyone else as it is to them. In fact, that’s not reality, and medical science and mycology are well versed in indoor moulds, and the overwhelming vast majority of competent professionals in these fields don’t support the “toxic mould” camp.
That is why these “victims” have had to seek out the “clinical ecologists,” fringe physicians (see for example the article in “Forbes Magazine” Dr. Mold - Forbes.com and their ilk. In one case in Florida, I exposed one of the country’s most famous “mould expert” who claimed to have a PhD in Toxicology, when in fact, he fabricated his toxicology degree and he had no real knowledge of moulds – but his clients were victims indeed – victims of fraud. But he caters to their emotional and psychological fragilities and peddles the “toxic mould” argument for large sums of money to the “mould survivors.”
As a general rule, upon closer investigation, the occurrences described by the poster “Mold Survivor” usually reveal a deep emotional or psychological problem, but seldom reveal an actual overt exposure to moulds, let alone a toxicologically significant exposure to moulds.
To this day (January 25, 2008) to my knowledge, there is not a single documented case of stachybotrytoxicosis as a result of indoor residential exposures to the archetypal “toxic black mould” Stachybotrys. More information on the actual science behind the irrational fear of "toxic black mould" can be found at Mould Health Effects: State of knowledge (mold)
In the last few weeks I have handled two “toxic mould” cases where the “mould victims” complained of the odors of “toxic moulds.” In both cases, we demonstrated that the odors were sewer gases, not mould, and there were no unusual mould exposures. One individual immediately felt better, the other dug deeper into her victimhood and claimed that we were members of the vast insurance/chemical company/ Republican/ Pharmaceutical conspiracy; she will forever suffer from “toxic moulds” because she so chooses. All the science, epidemiology and medical consulting won’t help her – but the charlatans will (for a cost – usually a very high cost). She needs them and they need her; and neither would exist without the other.
As far as mycotoxins go – virtually every American (indeed, every human) everyday of our lives inhale mycotoxins. That is just the way it is. Some researchers, however, have quantified the dose and clinically establish a dose-response relationship between airborne spores (and mycotoxins) and adverse effects. One team (1) investigating THE notorious penultimate “toxic mould” called Stachybotrys identified an LD50 (dose-based inhalation concentration resulting in death in 50% of the test population) of 2.7E5 spores per gram body weight. For a seventy kilogram individual, that would equate to a total body burden of 18,900,000,000 inhaled spores. In a home that contained an extremely elevated Stachybotrys spore count of say, 200 Stachybotrys spores per cubic meter of air, a person would have to spend 10,822 years (that is ten THOUSAND YEARS) in the house (24 hours per day, seven days per week) to receive the necessary dose.
OK, well, shoot, that means even if the exposure was an unheard of 2,000 Stachybotrys spores per cubic meter of air, a person would still have to spend 1,082 years (YEARS) in the house (24 hours per day, seven days per week) to receive the necessary dose. Now, maybe I’m just old fashioned, but most people with whom I associate are usually borne, married and dead after fewer than 500 years; so I’m not too concerned – neither should you be. However, for the mathematically challenged (those who don’t get this), mycotoxins in the air remain a huge problem (along with EMFs in high tension wires, and of course saccharine).
All joking aside, there is actually a psychological disorder from which most “toxic mould victims” suffer; their lot is not an happy one due primarily to their denial of their psychological condition.
But that is just my opinion, and as one famous “toxic mould expert” (with a phony PhD) reported on the internet, I made $5 million dollars in 2003 as a secret employee of the Hartford Insurance Company where, apparently, I head up a “Mold Misinformation Bureau.” After all, as the poster called “Mold Survivor” will tell you “The ONLY reason that the government doesn't recognise "toxic mold" is due to the fact that it would cost them millions, if not billions in additional health care costs.”
Therefore, that has to be a small number of people like me who are out there maintaining order in the world by manipulating entire nations – I just wish Hartford would pay me my wages … I need to pay down the mortgage on my private island. (For the benefit of the 12th Judicial Circuit, that is what is known in the vernacular as “a joke.”)
Having said that, moulds (actually fungi) do cause many significant diseases such as San Joaquin Valley fever, jock itch, aspergillosis and others. However, these are not caused by the common, everyday, normal, catholic, moulds that we see in houses (even houses with serious water intrusion problems).
Engaging “toxic mould victims” can be hazardous to one’s health, since challenging their “illness” is to challenge their very belief system; as a result, myself and other researchers have experienced death threats and very graphic descriptions of how we (and our children) will be treated by certain “toxic mould” victims – such is the nature of the illness.
(1) Peraica M; Radic B; Lucic A; Pavlovic M Toxic effects of mycotoxins in humans. Bulletin of the World Health Organization 1999;77(9):754-66 (ISSN: 0042-9686)
(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)
Excellent contribution, Caoimhín. I always enjoy reading your posts.
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). I rang her up when I found black mold all over the bathroom of house I just bought. I wish I still had the email she sent in response. Basically, she laughed at most of the "black mold" hype and said to bleach it down. Not that toxic mold doesn't exist, but its not as common as some would have you believe. And not that visible mold is good. 
Black mould issues
