Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have a similar yet different situation that we solved.
Kitchen was extended over an unheated crawl space.
Tile floor in the extended area was always freezing even with the recirculating hot water baseboard heat.
We pulled up the tile floor (maybe you can put tile over your existing floor) and set the electric radiant heat mats in the thin set. New tile was put on top. A separate 220 volt 20 amp circuit was installed along with a separate thermostat.
The results were phenomenal. We even removed the baseboard heat from the room.
Due to the large surface and the sheer mass of the concrete and tile, the floor takes hours to heat up, but stays warm for hours as well. I keep the thermostat at a constant 70 degrees so there is no waiting for results. We now walk barefoot in the room even in the dead of winter.
Thanks for the information. One thing I have now thought of (with the help of other comments) is the LACK of THERMAL MASS I will have to stay warm if I isolate the mesh in the sandwich format I am thinking (from the original post)..
Now I am wondering about making the sandwich as ..
Original tile.....blue board foam (1"+ or more) perhaps foil faced...then a layer of cement board.....next the mesh and finally the final surface...which might be laminate or might not. [Other good comments suggested possible concerns with laminate that might move (or open seams) with the mesh heat underneath.] Someone else has suggested a final surface (rolled like a vinyl, but actually totally different composition)...so I will have to research.
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL COMMENTS and keep them coming if you are so inclined.
You do really want to mess up the floor height like this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nejpski
Thanks for the information. One thing I have now thought of (with the help of other comments) is the LACK of THERMAL MASS I will have to stay warm if I isolate the mesh in the sandwich format I am thinking (from the original post)..
Now I am wondering about making the sandwich as ..
Original tile.....blue board foam (1"+ or more) perhaps foil faced...then a layer of cement board.....next the mesh and finally the final surface...which might be laminate or might not. [Other good comments suggested possible concerns with laminate that might move (or open seams) with the mesh heat underneath.] Someone else has suggested a final surface (rolled like a vinyl, but actually totally different composition)...so I will have to research.
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL COMMENTS and keep them coming if you are so inclined.
Honestly, if you were remodeling the house and everything was already kind of gutted I might see how this could work (but even then the real correct way to fix this would be improve the amount of flow going to either radiators or adding a hydronic subfloor heating system...) but the fear is going through all this trouble to try and create a "sandwich" of thick insulation AND mass ON TOP of tile and then LAYER more flooring on that seems like a very poor solution...
The electric cables are NOT INDESTRUCTIBLE -- every layer on top of them increases the odds of something damaging the cables. What if you go to through all this trouble and the room is still not warm enough?
This has "do not do this" written all over it in my mind...
Understood. One reason for this solution is...I can do it relatively cheaply ($600-$1000) and if I dont like the result I can tear it out and be no worse than where I started.
Cables are not indestructable: That;s a good thing to consider....so may not be so good having them next to the cement board. That;s part of the reason why I had originally put the foil bubble wrap in the sandwich....hmmm.
I do have another project...that is similar to this one, yet I dont understand why people want to treat them so differently. I have a basement room, about the same size, cold floors concrete with glued down carpet. I will tear up the glue down carpet and put some type of floor warming system on it.....the same sandwhich Idea is being considered. NOW for all those who suggested TEARING out the tile, it become obvious I wont be tearing out the concrete to add a layer of insulation below it.....and I DO know if I put down the mesh and tile, I will be wasting LOTS of my heat downward. So I see the possible sandwhich situation as something I can repeat (IF SUCCESSFUL) in both areas.
BTW: IF I go thru this and the room is not warm enuff....it is what it is..as others have suggested, why not do some type of wall heat....or ceiling fan low backwards.......I have done them all....and the DAMN floor is still cold. Yes, rugs do exist. I couple probably even throw down some cheap carpet, but I will take my existing tile over putting carpet on any of these floors. Having warm floors is often a PERCEIVED comfort......I am not so much concerned with the thermostat on the wall and what it says, but how warm it FEELS.
Again thanks for all comments....still looking for reasons NOT to...or things I need to consider which I have not yet. You (all) have provided several already, please keep them coming.
And MORE History., When I got into this house nearly 10 years ago..budget gas bill (which provides hot water, boiler heat for radiators (total of 29 of them)) and cooking gas was about $800 PER MONTH. We are now down to $200 to $250 per month....so I think we have made good progress. [Did I mention 63 exterior windows.] Yet my focus at this point is JUST THIS ROOM (and eventually the basement room).
Understood. One reason for this solution is...I can do it relatively cheaply ($600-$1000) and if I dont like the result I can tear it out and be no worse than where I started.
Cables are not indestructable: That;s a good thing to consider....so may not be so good having them next to the cement board. That;s part of the reason why I had originally put the foil bubble wrap in the sandwich....hmmm.
I do have another project...that is similar to this one, yet I dont understand why people want to treat them so differently. I have a basement room, about the same size, cold floors concrete with glued down carpet. I will tear up the glue down carpet and put some type of floor warming system on it.....the same sandwhich Idea is being considered. Unless the concrete is in terrible shape it will be a pretty SOLID base for anything on top of it. In contrast, a sunroom. built over a crawlspace that is "bricked up" might have a floor, that depending on who did the tiling, could have LOTS of movement. Together with the fact that the EARTH under the concrete is NATURALLY resistant to temperature change (whereas the temperature in the space beneath the sunroom will vary depending on air temperature...) you have TOTALLY differnent heating demand. NOW for all those who suggested TEARING out the tile, it become obvious I wont be tearing out the concrete to add a layer of insulation below it.....and I DO know if I put down the mesh and tile, I will be wasting LOTS of my heat downward. So I see the possible sandwhich situation as something I can repeat (IF SUCCESSFUL) in both areas.
BTW: IF I go thru this and the room is not warm enuff....it is what it is..as others have suggested, why not do some type of wall heat....or ceiling fan low backwards.......I have done them all....and the DAMN floor is still cold. Yes, rugs do exist. I couple probably even throw down some cheap carpet, but I will take my existing tile over putting carpet on any of these floors. Having warm floors is often a PERCEIVED comfort AGAIN you are ignoring the fact that BEST CASE radiant electric heat MIGHT get the floor up to maybe 85 -- that is NOT going do any good for whoever is trying to sleep in there or even work at desk / read in a chair -- the fact that you've failed to get it warm with space heat pretty clearly shows it is a GIANT sore spot with insufficiently weatherized windows / poor insulation!......I am not so much concerned with the thermostat on the wall and what it says, but how warm it FEELS.
Again thanks for all comments....still looking for reasons NOT to...or things I need to consider which I have not yet. You (all) have provided several already, please keep them coming.
And MORE History., When I got into this house nearly 10 years ago..budget gas bill (which provides hot water, boiler heat for radiators (total of 29 of them)) and cooking gas was about $800 PER MONTH. We are now down to $200 to $250 per month....so I think we have made good progress. [Did I mention 63 exterior windows.] Yet my focus at this point is JUST THIS ROOM (and eventually the basement room).
Thanks again.
It sounds like you have a giant blind spot as to what is really wrong with your plan. There are MAJOR differences in trying to make a basement floor a bit warmer, where there are thick concrete walls to avoid cold air currents from sucking out heat vs a sun room that may be completely lacking any insulation in the walls / ceiling and very likely has TOO MANY WINDOWS to EVER really be utilized year round in a cold climate!
Honestly, if you are prepared to blow throw $600 - $1000 and then rip it out if does not work you really ought to realize that IT PROBABLY IS NOT ANY MORE COSTLY TO DO THIS CORRECTLY! I have worked with guys that do sprayfoam -- they absolutely can neatly remove the bricks to get access to a crawl space, properly insulate the floor and then re-seal the crawl space for probably just a few hundred dollars. Similarly, if you have experience replacing windows you already know some firms will quote some sky high price for some ultra-premium windows and you can get 90% of the value for a fraction of the price. Especially in a sunroom it very well makes sense to have some of the operating windows replaced with FIXED panes that are far less air infiltration. Substitution of a few larger fixed picture windows is a great way to minimize air infiltration.
Finally, your fears of removing the tile is kinda goofy -- if in fact there are rotted joists under that tile you would have to be nuts not to want to FIX that! It will continue to get worse, especially if you have a warm electrical layer -- that will accelerate the damage of active microorganisms! If you do not fix the joists they will only get worse, it could threaten the safety of who ever sleeps in there as well as risk collapse of the whole house. Talk about "penny wise & pound foolish" -- whatever savings you've seen on reduced energy bills could be wiped about by a catastrophic collapse!
Thanks for the input: "be completely lacking any insulation in the walls / ceiling and very likely has TOO MANY WINDOWS" as mentioned in my previous post....I have had the sidewall and ceiling professionally insulated and the windows replaced (as you mentioned...being smart about what was spent). [I would agree that there may be too many windows to ever make this a 365 day livable environment.....but will see.] Our changes have made the room livable..but not ideally so. I would guess we have raised the room temp (by making the changes) by perhaps 12-18 degrees.
Will have to get a subcontractor to quote and see if the spray insulation can be done. The basement walls I have access to are honestly 18 inches thick....yep measured as I used a power drill to put a couple holes in. Hadnt seen that before.
My experience with tearing into old houses is you ALWAYS end up with all kinds of other issues which really wouldnt have been issues if you hadnt torn into them. [My decision, my risk.] Hence my desire to NOT tear out the existing tile.
I would certainly look to access the crawlspace from the basement. It's not usually a big job to knock out a few blocks and either replace them when you're done or install a hatch for future access. According to the earlier description this access had been closed up which indicates it's not a load bearing foundation wall.
This would create the opportunity to assess the condition of floor joists, etc. before putting money on top of them. How many times does the OP want to throw money at this problem rather than fixing it once and for all? Repair or replace damaged joists, insulate from below, insulate with reflective material, redo the subfloor correctly. This may be labor intensive, but not very expensive if he is doing the work himself. As a rank amateur (with some good advice) I did this in a section of an old inn that was 150 years old, sistering a few of the 3"x16" joists and putting in a clean, level subfloor before finishing the floor.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You do really want to mess up the floor height like this?
