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Well, newer fridges do work better, and they are more energy efficient. The old ones don't have enough produce drawers or meat keeper drawers. They might not have enough storage in the doors. And, they also don't have icemakers. So--frankly I want a newer fridge.
It sounds as if you talking about really nice older homes. I've never personally seen a soapstone counter, old or new. My experience with old kitchens is that they are awkward, and not easy to work in. The hand built birch cabinets that my parents had built for their house in the mid 1950s, aren't as nice as the ones I have now, or as the ones I had installed in 1999.
I think if I was restoring an old house of character, and the cabinets were still in good shape, and especially if they had old glass in them, I'd incorporate those elements into the new design. But I do not want to cook in an old, inefficient kitchen. And I want it to be fully wired with many outlets and under cabinet lights. (I've had too many years cooking in dark, under powered kitchens)
As to stoves, give me a good electric oven, and an induction cook top. If you ever use induction, you would never, ever want to use anything else. I also greatly admire large gas stoves, but I'd want a good one. Some of the old gas stoves are good appliances, but finding one is hard. For most of us, finding a good, high performing appliance makes cooking so much more enjoyable. And, I'd always want a dishwasher.
The housewife of 1955 wanted the best appliances; I think most of us today want the same.
Totally with you on induction with a nice electric convection oven. I love to cook and would not want to go back to regular gas or electric.
Also, the OP is assuming that the original kitchen in these houses was well built with quality materials for the time. Not all homes had the details you mention. I lived in an early 1900's home with a kitchen that had never been remodeled - only the stove and the refrigerator had ever been replaced. Guess what? There were no cabinets in the kitchen - none. The only storage and countertop space was in the pantry attached to the kitchen. The sink was a free-standing farmhouse sink with pipes exposed. The fridge and stove just stood on their own against the wall. The kitchen table had to double as the workspace in the kitchen. I assume the original owners probably had a free-standing china cabinet in one corner to hold their dishes. It was original, but it was a terrible kitchen.
Totally with you on induction with a nice electric convection oven. I love to cook and would not want to go back to regular gas or electric.
Also, the OP is assuming that the original kitchen in these houses was well built with quality materials for the time. Not all homes had the details you mention. I lived in an early 1900's home with a kitchen that had never been remodeled - only the stove and the refrigerator had ever been replaced. Guess what? There were no cabinets in the kitchen - none. The only storage and countertop space was in the pantry attached to the kitchen. The sink was a free-standing farmhouse sink with pipes exposed. The fridge and stove just stood on their own against the wall. The kitchen table had to double as the workspace in the kitchen. I assume the original owners probably had a free-standing china cabinet in one corner to hold their dishes. It was original, but it was a terrible kitchen.
Forgot to mention: there was one electrical outlet in the whole kitchen. We could run either the toaster or the microwave. Running both at the same time would blow a fuse. We kept only one appliance plugged in at a time as a reminder. The outlet was not near the kitchen table, so we had an extension cord that we used when hand appliances, like a blender or an electric mixer, were needed. There was no dishwasher.
The woodwork in the kitchen was very plain - just painted trim around the windows and doors. It did not match the lovely woodwork in the rest of the house, because the room was not designed to be seen by company corners were cut.
Oh, this thread is bringing back a lot of fun memories. My vote is definitely for a modern kitchen. I'll point out, too, that it is possible to get all wood cabinets even now. There are custom cabinet builders that make them without any mdf or particle board. They are expensive, yes - but the good stuff, the examples the OP is thinking of, was expensive back then, too, and didn't make it into every house.
My parents bought and remodeled a1925-1930 place with hysteric oops historic requirements. Being a master carpenter helped. Has anyone here worked in a kitchen with a single cold water faucet, wood stove for heating, under counter fridge hidden in one of five base cabinets, two burner electric stove with an oven too small for a turkey?
Decorating, sink style, colors, counters, ... to each his/her own. Technology and function can be combined with style but good workmanship and material is not cheap. It was not cheap back then. Old is not the equivalent to quality. New does not have to mean sawdust or plywood, stainless does not have to mean fingerprints. The days of kitchens being separated from the house or a functional room by itself are over for most of us. If you like your old fridge, your old stove and they do the trick for you - keep them. You want to go back to an ice box - be my guest. We call it a cooler and drag it to the lake:>) I found out recently what a commercial 4-burner stove can do. Why did I not get one ten years ago?
I know how to cook and somehow bake with a woodstove - any volunteers to feed a crowd doing so? Do not ask me to do it!
Forgot to mention: there was one electrical outlet in the whole kitchen. We could run either the toaster or the microwave. Running both at the same time would blow a fuse. We kept only one appliance plugged in at a time as a reminder. The outlet was not near the kitchen table, so we had an extension cord that we used when hand appliances, like a blender or an electric mixer, were needed. There was no dishwasher.
The woodwork in the kitchen was very plain - just painted trim around the windows and doors. It did not match the lovely woodwork in the rest of the house, because the room was not designed to be seen by company corners were cut.
Oh, this thread is bringing back a lot of fun memories. My vote is definitely for a modern kitchen. I'll point out, too, that it is possible to get all wood cabinets even now. There are custom cabinet builders that make them without any mdf or particle board. They are expensive, yes - but the good stuff, the examples the OP is thinking of, was expensive back then, too, and didn't make it into every house.
This is a great post, and brought me a couple chuckles too.
Thinking about the all-wood cabinets in my grandmother's house (c. 1900) with warped doors because ventilation wasn't a thing 100 years ago. My memories of her will always include a steamy, smoky kitchen where she cooked devotedly for her 4 sons and about 20 other people a day. But hey...they were ALL WOOD so they must be better? (never mind that we just put in all wood cabs ourselves in 2016).
Speaking of our kitchen, not sure what we should do since our home was originally built in 1948, but had significant additions and renovations in 1958 and again in 1995.
I'm sorry, I know you like your rant, so I'm not really going to bother to reply too much.
Thank you. (Personal attacks are not necessary and only appear childish and reduce credibility rather than being persuasive.)
Nothing wring with Knob wiring...yeah right.
Clearly you do not know a lot about knob & tube wiring. For most applications if it is in good shape, it is fine. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of houses operating perfectly well on K & T, or partial K & T. Yes, there are advantages to modern wiring, but often not enough advantage to justify the cost or damage of re-wiring. You do not re-wire just because it is K & T and it looks scary to you. You re-wire only if there is a problem that cannot be resolved in anther way.
Galvanized pipes?
Galvanized pipes are pipes, just like any other kind of pipes. Sometimes they close up over time, sometimes they do not. If they close up, you replace them. However changing out plumbing pipes really has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Replacing the pipes eventually is just maintenance. You do not gut a house because the gutters are plugged up, or because the furnace filter needs replacing. Likewise you do not need to bastardize a historic house with an anachronistic modern kitchen just because you need to replace pipes. Threading in some PEX is relatively simple.
Pilot lights?
Pilot lights have noting to do with finishes. To me they are nonessential. Just don't leave the gas on. turn it off - no need for a pilot light as long as you have a match. However if you want or feel like you need one, they are available for any stove of any age (except wood or coal stoves). They have been around for a very long time and you have to go way back to find a stove that does not have them. If you want one and do not have one, you just add one. It is very easy. It is actually easy to add electronic igniters and flow cutoffs or other safety features as well. You do not need to gut the kitchen and install stainless appliances and granite counters to add a pilot light to a stove. You buy a $40 part and spend two hours putting it in, or pay someone a hundred or so to put it in for you. You could also buy a reproduction stove with those features.
Waste disposals?
For most sinks, a waste disposal is simply a matter of putting one in. It is a one hour job at the most. Some older sinks have too small of drains to accommodate a waste disposal. Sometimes you can adapt the plumbing, sometimes not. In that case you can live without one, put in a different appropriate sink with a bigger drain hole, or add a sink with a waste disposal in a small room hidden behind a secret door (our choice). However I would be just as happy without one. They are a PIA. We do not use ours much and when we do use it it often jams, breaks and needs replacing, stinks, plugs up the drain, makes a lot of noise etcetera. Not having one is a minor inconvenience. Many people who have them do not use them. Organic waste goes to the dog, stewpot, or compost pile. Or you can put it in the trash. Waste disposals are very unsanitary unless they receive constant maintenance. Gut the kitchen for a waste disposal? Is that really your argument? "I have to tear out my entire historic kitchen and spend $20,000 for an out of place, comparatively poorly built modern kitchen that will make my house look silly, just so I do not have to put organic waste in the compost pile or trash."
I am not really sure what good they do. You cannot put spoiled burned or otherwise unacceptable meat in them, you have to pick out any bones; fiberous materials, or hard bits; to put vegetables int hem you have to chip them up first. Yes, you can sometimes scrape plates directly into the drain instead of into a trash can or compost bucket - sometimes.
Frankly, it you feel you have to gut and replace the kitchen in order to have a waste disposal, then you probably should not consider an older house. You are not going to be happy.
Frost free?
Frost free is a minor convenience, not a technological marvel and not a reason to gut a kitchen and put in chintzy pressboard counters, out of place granite and stainless, or plastic floors. You can either spend a few hours a year defrosting occasionally, put in a reproduction fridge that is frost freee if that matters a great deal to you, put in a modern fridge and hide it in a cupboard or the pantry, put a back up freezer/fridge in an non obtrusive location.
Multi-zone HVAC?
We have this (except we never bought the air handler and compressor). Did not need to gut anything. It is certainly not a necessity. However, most modern houses do not have multi zone AC. Why you would think this requires gutting and replacing the kitchen is unclear.
One overhead light on a pullchain (my grandmother's kitchen)?
[b][b]Those lights are awesome. Need more light, install some. Keep the original one, they are really handy sometimes (like when you are walking through in the dark trying to find a wall switch. When the people I am discussing in this thread restore the other parts of their house, they carefully install more outlets and light fixtures without damaging the historical integrity of the house. They install antique fixtures or quality reproductions - until they get to the kitchen - then they put in the same junk from home depot or lowes that every house in the neighboring modern subdivision have. You are demonstrating my point exactly. Why do people pay a premium for historic charm in all the other rooms, then destroy it in the kitchen? the whole point of owning a historic home is to appreciate its unique historic character, not replace it with modern subdivision parts identical to what you find in evey house built in the past 30 years. There is nothing special about kitchens that justifies bastardizing them in this way while preserving the integrity of the rest of the house, but it is done frequently. THe only reason I can see for it is marketing/brainwashing.
Not bothering with the rest...just will say not everything old was great and not everything new is bad.
I do not say that either. I say if you want a new house with various conveniences (which as I said and you have demonstrated above save maybe 12% in human convenience/efficiency), buy a new house, do not bastardize our limited supply of historic houses.
I am no saying people should not like new houses. A lot of people (obviously including you) prefer new houses to old houses. Nothing wrong with that, both have advantages and disadvantages. That was not the subject of my post. I am puzzled by the fact that people who actually like the historic charm of older houses, and are willing to pay a premium elsewhere to restore that historic charm, ruin their kitchens.
However, now that you bring it up, when it comes to quality of materials and workmanship that is true of many many things. New things are mass produced in the cheapest way possible. Everything is made to be thrown out in a few years, not made to last. That includes homes. But that is a different subject altogether.
What you don't get OP is that people can do whatever they want with THEIR homes. If they want a more modern kitchen in an old house, then really....why should you care? You expend a lot of text justifying your choices/reasons. Be happy with what you have and let others be happy with what they have.
And again, you seem to confuse "newer" with "inferior". You don't seem to realize that custom made, solid wood cabinetry still exists today. You also don't seem to realize that all of those things you find nifty may not be all that nifty to other people. Almost all of those things that you said were "charming" I don't care for in my kitchen, even if I were to buy an older home. People may like the architecture of older homes and the woodwork but may not care for older kitchens that may not suit their needs (despite you emphatically insisting that the older kitchens would suit their personal needs).
What you are posting is nothing more than your personal taste/preferences. For some strange reason you have this mistaken notion that newer kitchens and frankly anything that isn't an "oldie but goodie" is cheap and inferior. You couldn't be farther from the truth. My contemporary cabinets are solid maple and custom. Well made is well made regardless of style or build year. As for granite/Quartz/etc I just like the way the look plain and simple. It's not always about function. A cement slab theoretically would work too but I don't find it appealing to my eye. I like separate cooktops and wall ovens. I like lots of drawers, dividers, and all sorts of things that newer kitchens have. The only limit is your imagination. I'll just let your "mass produced subdivision" comments slide...there are some really nice newer "subdivision" homes that are not cookie cutter or give any sort of impression of being mass produced. Think custom homes, for example. Listen I hear you about older homes. I love them and maybe will live in one when I retire. But everything doesn't need to be yanked straight out of the history book to look good. And having dealt with radiators in NYC, you can keep that you get no high end points here for having radiator heat
You also miss the point. This is not about whether older materials or items are superior or inferior (some are some are not). This about why people who actually appreciate older homes and charm and pay a lot of money to maintain or restore that charm, become destroyers of charm when it comes to the kitchen. To live in a charming older home, you will have to do more work. Cleaning beautiful 16" baseoard molding, panel doors, crystal chandeliers, etc is a lot more work than the plain flat surfaces used in modern homes. Yet people are willing to do this work to preserve the charm in 80% of the house, just not the kitchen.
No one has identified anything that is anything other than a minor inconvenience or something that is easily dealt with by a simple modification. Obviously an older house needs modification to work for today's families. But it does not need to be completely ripped out and replaced (it is cheaper to just buy a new house int he first place). I am not asking why someone prefers a modern house to and older house. I am asking why people who apparently appreciate and prefer old house charm over new house convenience to the point where they are willing to pay the substantial added cost in money and labor to preserve it in the rest of the house, are bipolar when they walk into the kitchen.
If you like new houses better - fine. This thread is not addressed to you.
I'm sorry, I know you like your rant, so I'm not really going to bother to reply too much.
Thank you. (Insults are not necessary and only appear childish and reduce credibility rather than being persuasive.)
Nothing wring with Knob wiring...yeah right.
Clearly you do not know a lot about knob & tube wiring. For most applications if it is in good shape, it is fine. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of houses operating perfectly well on K & T, or partial K & T. Yes, there are advantages to modern wiring, but often not enough advantage to justify the cost or damage of re-wiring. You do not re-wire just because it is K & T and it looks scary to you. You re-wire only if there is a problem that cannot be resolved in anther way.
Galvanized pipes?
Galvanized pipes are pipes, just like any other kind of pipes. Sometimes they close up over time, sometimes they do not. If they close up, you replace them. However changing out plumbing pipes really has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Replacing the pipes eventually is just maintenance. You do not gut a house because the gutters are plugged up, or because the furnace filter needs replacing. Likewise you do not need to bastardize a historic house with an anachronistic modern kitchen just because you need to replace pipes. Threading in some PEX is relatively simple.
Pilot lights?
Pilot lights have noting to do with finishes. To me they are nonessential. Just don't leave the gas on. turn it off - no need for a pilot light as long as you have a match. However if you want or feel like you need one, they are available for any stove of any age (except wood or coal stoves). They have been around for a very long time and you have to go way back to find a stove that does not have them. If you want one and do not have one, you just add one. It is very easy. It is actually easy to add electronic igniters and flow cutoffs or other safety features as well. You do not need to gut the kitchen and install stainless appliances and granite counters to add a pilot light to a stove. You buy a $40 part and spend two hours putting it in, or pay someone a hundred or so to put it in for you. You could also buy a reproduction stove with those features.
Waste disposals?
For most sinks, a waste disposal is simply a matter of putting one in. It is a one hour job at the most. Some older sinks have too small of drains to accommodate a waste disposal. Sometimes you can adapt the plumbing, sometimes not. In that case you can live without one, put in a different appropriate sink with a bigger drain hole, or add a sink with a waste disposal in a small room hidden behind a secret door (our choice). However I would be just as happy without one. They are a PIA. We do not use ours much and when we do use it it often jams, breaks and needs replacing, stinks, plugs up the drain, makes a lot of noise etcetera. Not having one is a minor inconvenience. Many people who have them do not use them. Organic waste goes to the dog, stewpot, or compost pile. Or you can put it in the trash. Waste disposals are very unsanitary unless they receive constant maintenance. Gut the kitchen for a waste disposal? Is that really your argument? "I have to tear out my entire historic kitchen and spend $20,000 for an out of place, comparatively poorly built modern kitchen that will make my house look silly, just so I do not have to put organic waste in the compost pile or trash."
I am not really sure what good they do. You cannot put spoiled burned or otherwise unacceptable meat in them, you have to pick out any bones; fiberous materials, or hard bits; to put vegetables int hem you have to chip them up first. Yes, you can sometimes scrape plates directly into the drain instead of into a trash can or compost bucket - sometimes.
Frankly, it you feel you have to gut and replace the kitchen in order to have a waste disposal, then you probably should not consider an older house. You are not going to be happy.
Frost free?
Frost free is a minor convenience, not a technological marvel and not a reason to gut a kitchen and put in chintzy pressboard counters, out of place granite and stainless, or plastic floors. You can either spend a few hours a year defrosting occasionally, put in a reproduction fridge that is frost freee if that matters a great deal to you, put in a modern fridge and hide it in a cupboard or the pantry, put a back up freezer/fridge in an non obtrusive location.
Multi-zone HVAC?
We have this (except we never bought the air handler and compressor). Did not need to gut anything. It is certainly not a necessity. However, most modern houses do not have multi zone AC. Why you would think this requires gutting and replacing the kitchen is unclear.
One overhead light on a pullchain (my grandmother's kitchen)?
Those lights are awesome. Need more light, install some. Keep the original one, they are really handy sometimes (like when you are walking through in the dark trying to find a wall switch. When the people I am discussing in this thread restore the other parts of their house, they carefully install more outlets and light fixtures without damaging the historical integrity of the house. They install antique fixtures or quality reproductions - until they get to the kitchen - then they put in the same junk from home depot or lowes that every house in the neighboring modern subdivision have. You are demonstrating my point exactly. Why do people pay a premium for historic charm in all the other rooms, then destroy it in the kitchen? the whole point of owning a historic home is to appreciate its unique historic character, not replace it with modern subdivision parts identical to what you find in evey house built in the past 30 years. There is nothing special about kitchens that justifies bastardizing them in this way while preserving the integrity of the rest of the house, but it is done frequently. THe only reason I can see for it is marketing/brainwashing.
Not bothering with the rest...just will say not everything old was great and not everything new is bad.
I do not say that either. I say if you want a new house with various conveniences (which as I said and you have demonstrated above save maybe 12% in human convenience/efficiency), buy a new house, do not bastardize our limited supply of historic houses.
I am no saying people should not like new houses. A lot of people (obviously including you) prefer new houses to old houses. Nothing wrong with that, both have advantages and disadvantages. That was not the subject of my post. I am puzzled by the fact that people who actually like the historic charm of older houses, and are willing to pay a premium elsewhere to restore that historic charm, ruin their kitchens.
However, now that you bring it up, when it comes to quality of materials and workmanship that is true of many many things. New things are mass produced in the cheapest way possible. Everything is made to be thrown out in a few years, not made to last. That includes homes. But that is a different subject altogether.
Point went WAY over your head.
Your initial post was basically "everything old is better than anything new." If you stick to your guns on that why would you upgrade anything? All of a sudden you're advocating the install of a bunch of items that weren't available or common 100+ years ago. Isn't anything new upsetting the the historical integrity of the house?
Or are you just trying to say that you think people should use quality materials appropriate for the history of the house? Well, that, mixed in with an overblown rant about how bad everything is today?
PS, My home was built in 1948 and improved in 1958 and 1994. So...nope, you're way wrong about that.
You also miss the point. This is not about whether older materials or items are superior or inferior (some are some are not). This about why people who actually appreciate older homes and charm and pay a lot of money to maintain or restore that charm, become destroyers of charm when it comes to the kitchen. To live in a charming older home, you will have to do more work. Cleaning beautiful 16" baseoard molding, panel doors, crystal chandeliers, etc is a lot more work than the plain flat surfaces used in modern homes. Yet people are willing to do this work to preserve the charm in 80% of the house, just not the kitchen.
No one has identified anything that is anything other than a minor inconvenience or something that is easily dealt with by a simple modification. Obviously an older house needs modification to work for today's families. But it does not need to be completely ripped out and replaced (it is cheaper to just buy a new house int he first place). I am not asking why someone prefers a modern house to and older house. I am asking why people who apparently appreciate and prefer old house charm over new house convenience to the point where they are willing to pay the substantial added cost in money and labor to preserve it in the rest of the house, are bipolar when they walk into the kitchen.
If you like new houses better - fine. This thread is not addressed to you.
I guess the bolded above is something I have not really ever experienced as severely as you claim to.
I have a strong suspicion you're overestimating how many homeowners are truly faithful to the original state of the home they live in. Growing up in New England, the challenge was almost always how to keep the good stuff while replacing the bad stuff.
Yeah, I'll make sure the original wainscoting and mahogany trim is preserved, but no I'm not using ground lifters all over the house just so I can proudly claim to be preserving my K&T wiring.
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you get no high end points here for having radiator heat
