question about ungrounded 2 prong outlets in older home (AC, heaters, vacuum)

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by hornraider

Thanks EDS, good advise already on this thread. The only things I might add to consider are:

1) a complete rewire job is more cost effective as a total gut job. It's a real PITA to replace wire in the walls without removing the sheetrock. Generally speaking, you should replace all the wiring if its very old (50yrs), have had structural damage (fire, water), have aluminum wires, or cloth insulated cables.
Or have any other problems with the electricity.

2) appliances should be grounded (3 prongs) because that ground wire is designed to protect you from being part of the circuit in case the neutral wire is broken or gets wet.
As mentioned above, 3 pronged outlets are useless unless 3 wire cable is ran to them (romex).

3) GFCI outlets are mandatory, per code, in wet locations (over countertops, garage, batrooms and outside. Gfci breakers can be used but arent that common anymore except for pools and hottubs.

Btw, don't use gfci receps for the fridge or washing machine, they frequently get a little wet and trip the very sensitive GFCI outlet. But I would definetly want those outlets grounded (3 prong) if nothing else for that reason.

Pm me if you want more specifics. Good luck

The type of plug to use depends on the amps. A 110 compressor will draw current sufficient to arc across the screws in the plug. The standard 3 prong is only rated for 15 amps or so. There is a higher rated plug that positions the prongs in such a way to avoid arcing. It requires a different recepticle to plug into.

[mSooner]

Piggyback question--we've replaced the outlets in our late 70s home to have GFCIs in the baths and kitchen, but I know we have a Federal Pacific breaker box. Our inspector noted it and I wasn't sure what to do with it. How much does it cost to replace a breaker box--not full home rewiring?

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by mSooner

Piggyback question--we've replaced the outlets in our late 70s home to have GFCIs in the baths and kitchen, but I know we have a Federal Pacific breaker box. Our inspector noted it and I wasn't sure what to do with it. How much does it cost to replace a breaker box--not full home rewiring?

I had a Federal Pacific on this house when I bought it; cost me a couple grand to have it replaced. They did a crappy job though.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

If I had this problem, I'd fix it myself. I'd turn off all the power and work by a generator that I'd make sure was operating outside. The solution just requires the changing of the outlets to three prong from two and grounding the recepticle box. Why pay thousands to an electrician to do such an easy job?

Just make sure the connections are done right. If it will burn your house down in a million years, the job ain't done good enough.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle

If I had this problem, I'd fix it myself. I'd turn off all the power and work by a generator that I'd make sure was operating outside. The solution just requires the changing of the outlets to three prong from two and grounding the recepticle box. Why pay thousands to an electrician to do such an easy job?

Just make sure the connections are done right. If it will burn your house down in a million years, the job ain't done good enough.

Your "recepticle box" better already be grounded.

What you are suggesting is phenomenally dangerous, illegal, and just plain stupid.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by EDS_

Your "recepticle box" better already be grounded.

What you are suggesting is phenomenally dangerous, illegal, and just plain stupid.

I expressed my opinion. I looked up the problem and read about it. I took an electricians course about thirty years ago. I fixed a microwave recently which was a far more dangerous job.

The old wiring should be okay. The codes even in those days were set to a ridiculous standard to protect the homes this according to my grandfather. The proper way to connect the wires to the new receptical is to wrap it at least 75 % around the screw in a clockwise direction.

Repeat.

This is basic stuff.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle

I expressed my opinion. I looked up the problem and read about it. I took an electricians course about thirty years ago. I fixed a microwave recently which was a far more dangerous job.

The old wiring should be okay. The codes even in those days were set to a ridiculous standard to protect the homes this according to my grandfather. The proper way to connect the wires to the new receptical is to wrap it at least 75 % around the screw in a clockwise direction.

Repeat.

This is basic stuff.

What you described is A). Dangerous for people in the home not the installer B). Illegal.

1. If I bought an old house with ungrounded power I'd have the system grounded immediately - probably before move-in.

2. That's separate from your plan to simply ground the box and install 3-prong outlets.

3. I'd bet the solution you read about specified to do what you said plus place a GFCI first in line across each circuit, either with GFCI breakers in the panel itself or by using GFCI outlets and then labeling all the new 3-pronged outlets as ungrounded. Done right this scheme is safe and has NEC blessing. Although in some cases NEC requires both GFCI and Arc Fault protection.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by EDS_

What you described is A). Dangerous for people in the home not the installer B). Illegal.

1. If I bought an old house with ungrounded power I'd have the system grounded immediately - probably before move-in.

2. That's separate from your plan to simply ground the box and install 3-prong outlets.

3. I'd bet the solution you read about specified to do what you said plus place a GFCI first in line across each circuit, either with GFCI breakers in the panel itself or by using GFCI outlets and then labeling all the new 3-pronged outlets as ungrounded. Done right this scheme is safe and has NEC blessing. Although in some cases NEC requires both GFCI and Arc Fault protection.

It is against the law to change out an electrical recepticle? They need to prohibit their sell at the Hardware store then. It took me awhile to understand the fellow's question. I believe all he has to do is turn off all the power, change the 2 prong recepticle to a new 3 prong recepticle, and then ground it to the outlet box.

But perhaps you are right and this is the direction we are all headed. I've been cutting down branches lately. I hope they don't confiscate my chain saw. In order to appease and fend them off, perhaps it would be wise to buy myself a pair of pink work boots.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle

It is against the law to change out an electrical recepticle? They need to prohibit their sell at the Hardware store then. It took me awhile to understand the fellow's question. I believe all he has to do is turn off all the power, change the 2 prong recepticle to a new 3 prong recepticle, and then ground it to the outlet box.

But perhaps you are right and this is the direction we are all headed. I've been cutting down branches lately. I hope they don't confiscate my chain saw. In order to appease and fend them off, perhaps it would be wise to buy myself a pair of pink work boots.

You can't even keep your own nonsense straight. Earlier you advised installing 3-prong outlets and grounding the panel. Now you are saying add 3-prong outlets and ground that/them to the "outlet box".

ETA - It's a misdeamenor to knowingly violate NEC code in this case NEC 210-7(d)(3)...$1,000 fine and a year in jail potentially. In some cases where fraud is involved code violations become felonies.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by EDS_

You can't even keep your own nonsense straight. Earlier you advised installing 3-prong outlets and grounding the panel. Now you are saying add 3-prong outlets and ground that/them to the "outlet box".

The original electrical service fed factories. This is like the original car battery in old cars feeding nothing but the starter to turn the motor over. What we get in the house is stepped down factory service. The fellow is getting 240 volts from the pole to his breaker box. This is a certainty. If the internal wiring of his house has just two wires, he has a problem. If he has four, he doesn't. If he has three, he needs to do a lot of thinking. I think we over do it complaining about old houses. In many ways, they were built superior.