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This is very good advice. Do you think I should do some tests before talking to him? I have been referred to a a firm that are architectural, construction and building code experts, specialized in the forensic analysis, design and repair. My concern about talking to GC first, is having him play it down - "we can put some extra material under and replace the damaged wood". For all I know there is a risk the entire flooring will end up damaged later on.
I just uncovered another email exchange I had with the GC. When they were done with the job and removed some boards that were covering the garage floor, the clean out was all rusted, so I sent him an email asking why and he said probably because of moisture trapped under the board. So I responded:
"...all the moisture trapped under the board what makes me concerned about the wood floor."
his response
"the slab under the wood floor is covered with 1 1/2 inches of rigid, foil wrapped (both sides) insulation, 3/4 plywood & then 2 layers of 15# felt building paper on top of the plywood... I believe it'll be fine..."
I don't know this would be enough, and also don't know if this is what was specified by architect (as in the diagram I attached a couple post before). I don't think any of this is an actual vapor barrier or retardant, or if any was specified by architect. But should there be sleepers under the floor as well?
I am hoping all these protections actually do help, and that moisture is not coming from the concrete slab. If we find out the slab moisture levels are fine, and the moisture is coming from the threshold, it might be easier to remedy.
So, 2-1/4"+ of "stuff" UNDER the finish flooring...
The total height of the threshold doesn't look to be even two inches; and the finish flooring doesn't come close to the top of the threshold. It doesn't add up!
skubaman wrote: "...all the moisture trapped under the board what makes me concerned about the wood floor."
his response
"the slab under the wood floor is covered with 1 1/2 inches of rigid, foil wrapped (both sides) insulation, 3/4 plywood & then 2 layers of 15# felt building paper on top of the plywood... I believe it'll be fine..."
My reactions to the GC:
1) the floor is obviously damaged from moisture
2) whatever the source of that moisture, the actual construction isn't doing the job of keeping the moisture out ...
3) The GC's "opinion" that "I believe it'll be fine" has obviously been refuted by the failed hardwood floor in a very short time frame after completion of the project
You're still back to square one at this point. You MUST contact the GC, advise him of the wood floor problem, and give him ample room and opportunity to investigate and correct the problem IF you want him to be accountable for the problem.
IF he doesn't get the problem resolved in a reasonable time frame, you can then bring in the other experts you've consulted to assess the situation and pursue their solutions. If in the course of that process you discover that the GC hadn't built the project according to the architect's plans or in a workmanlike manner, then you may have recourse against the GC. Depending upon the projected cost of getting the project completed properly, you may find a very rocky road ahead to litigation if the GC can't or won't get the job done.
Time now to quit messin' around with this. Get your notices out to the GC, the architect, the engineers advising them of the problem ASAP. They cannot fix what they don't know is a problem with the project.
We did a project about a year ago in which we added living space in part of the garage. Everything done per code with structural engineer, architect, licensed contractor, licensed subs, etc...The space is on grade with street, below grade to back of the house.
A portion of the wood (white oak) floor boards have cupped (concave) to the point you can fill it under your feet. I do understand what are some of the general causes of cupping, and in my case could be moisture.
At risk of being attacked here, and being ignorant on the matter, what I am looking for help here is whether one of the providers hired for this job should have taken measures so it wouldn't happen, or warn me of the risks, or should even be held responsible for fixing the problem - the architect? the contractor? Is it just my loss with inherit risk of building at/below grade?
The concrete slab was brand new, and according to GC the flooring sub-contractor was going to apply vapor barrier below the hardwood.
Thanks for your feedback
Maybe I'm just dense, but how exactly was this space part of a garage? According to all of the pictures you've posted its at the back of the house abutting the bottom of a sizable rise. Was this entire building a garage?
I've only read the first and last pages of this thread. But are there expansion gaps, is it cupping evenly over the whole floor or just part of it. Are there gaps between board edges or is it tight? What were the moisture meter readings? What area do you live in? What month was it laid? Has the cupping changed since you first noticed it. When did you first notice it?
Hi all, adding a message here to explain what has been found out about the problem and get your feedback on the repair.
Because the GC and I had some areas of contention during the original project, I first hired a construction inspector company to assess the problem and root cause. It was identified the water was coming in through a gap between the back patio door frame and the wall. And there were potentially other failure points.
The GC came in after and fixed the gap and added extra material on the outside to make it water tight.
Now it's time to repair the hardwood and GC and original installer are coming in in 2 days for us to discuss. Contractor once mentioned they would just sand down and refinish the floor. Is it unreasonable for me to think they should replace all the affect boards? If they were to sand it, wouldn't it be quite a bit of sanding considering the curve of the cup (I know it's hard to see in the pics, but they are quite pronounced), which would then reduce the lifetime of the hardwood? FYI, the hardwood has already been refinished right after being installed, because the GC/Floor installer didn't use the correct finish to match the rest of the house. So they have already been refinished once.
Considering that most of the wood boards in the hallways area are affected, should I actually ask them to replace all of them, so they are uniform and will all have the same lifetime?
Please see attached pictures of the space. Let me know if you have questions.
Thank you very much
Pictures of the gap and water test, and 2 pictures of the patching.
The installer needs to take moisture readings of the flooring to make sure it's dry. Not just using a cheap Bunnings moisture meter either, he needs to use a resistance meter (with pins) species corrected, and use a hammer probe to get moisture readings of the top, middle and bottom of the boards. If cupped boards are resanded and the boards are still wet then the floor will crown. How severe is the cupping? You can measure this with a steel ruler placed over the cupped boards, and depending on how severe it is, use either another steel ruler, or feeler gauges. Regarding whether it can be resanded would depend on the severity of the cupping, but water can also pool in the subfloor. Options would be resand after moisture testing with a proper moisture meter, or replace boards, and consideration may also need to be given to replacing areas of the subfloor where the moisture ingress occurred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skubaman
Hi all, adding a message here to explain what has been found out about the problem and get your feedback on the repair.
Because the GC and I had some areas of contention during the original project, I first hired a construction inspector company to assess the problem and root cause. It was identified the water was coming in through a gap between the back patio door frame and the wall. And there were potentially other failure points.
The GC came in after and fixed the gap and added extra material on the outside to make it water tight.
Now it's time to repair the hardwood and GC and original installer are coming in in 2 days for us to discuss. Contractor once mentioned they would just sand down and refinish the floor. Is it unreasonable for me to think they should replace all the affect boards? If they were to sand it, wouldn't it be quite a bit of sanding considering the curve of the cup (I know it's hard to see in the pics, but they are quite pronounced), which would then reduce the lifetime of the hardwood? FYI, the hardwood has already been refinished right after being installed, because the GC/Floor installer didn't use the correct finish to match the rest of the house. So they have already been refinished once.
Considering that most of the wood boards in the hallways area are affected, should I actually ask them to replace all of them, so they are uniform and will all have the same lifetime?
Please see attached pictures of the space. Let me know if you have questions.
Thank you very much
Pictures of the gap and water test, and 2 pictures of the patching.
The installer needs to take moisture readings of the flooring to make sure it's dry. Not just using a cheap Bunnings moisture meter either, he needs to use a resistance meter (with pins) species corrected, and use a hammer probe to get moisture readings of the top, middle and bottom of the boards. If cupped boards are resanded and the boards are still wet then the floor will crown. How severe is the cupping? You can measure this with a steel ruler placed over the cupped boards, and depending on how severe it is, use either another steel ruler, or feeler gauges. Regarding whether it can be resanded would depend on the severity of the cupping, but water can also pool in the subfloor. Options would be resand after moisture testing with a proper moisture meter, or replace boards, and consideration may also need to be given to replacing areas of the subfloor where the moisture ingress occurred.
Thanks QueenBeesWax,
The GC had a dehumidifier running for about 2 weeks during the day, I think he was trying to see if the cupping without improve, and it didn't.
I am ignorant about this, so how much should be the moisture read on top of the boards to even see if they can be just sanded down? And if they install new boards, what should the read of the boards be and of the subfloor?
The installer is very hard to work with and we had challenges during the original project, like when he used the wrong finish and wanted to charge to refinish.
I will try to gauge with a metal ruler and report back.
Hi, please see picture attached. Looks like the cupping might be 1/8th to 3/16th.
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