Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I completely agree with K'ledgeBldr -- if there has been an assessment of a qualified engineering firm that suggests a specific course of remediation that is within your budget there is no reason for this to be a "deal killer".
I would caution that trying to extract massive discounts from a seller who has otherwise been upfront and cooperative is not a recipe for success. Quite the opposite, in situations where there is small town mindset of builders / engineers / real estate people that all know one another it very likely that a combative attitude may make it impossible for any potential buyer to find any advice about properties with paying upfront for even the most basic opinion that might otherwise be given without cost in an informal way to buyers who seem genuinely interested in cooperatively finding a fairly priced home...
Thats nonsense, if the inspection report comes back with a laundry list of expensive fixes you negotiate the price downwards to what you think is fair, this is what we did with our house and it was not an issue. IF there is someone in the process that is over the top sensitive to this then you have to cut them out and find someone else. But then again I am a professional engineer and I generally know what I am looking at, know what I can fix myself and what stuff will cost.
BUT if your not an engineer you may have to pander, but to me pandering is undignified and it actually is toxic for your soul.
Thats nonsense, if the inspection report comes back with a laundry list of expensive fixes you negotiate the price downwards to what you think is fair, this is what we did with our house and it was not an issue. IF there is someone in the process that is over the top sensitive to this then you have to cut them out and find someone else. But then again I am a professional engineer and I generally know what I am looking at, know what I can fix myself and what stuff will cost.
BUT if your not an engineer you may have to pander, but to me pandering is undignified and it actually is toxic for your soul.
While you may believe your experience as an engineer is the best preparation for the negotiating the purchase of a home my experience is that most sellers are not driven by purely logical arguments -- if they have been living in a house for decades or merely driving by it daily and the place has not fallen down on them they have a psychological tendency to assume that that any repairs that may be called for by a team of engineers are probably overkill. Of course that sort of attitude may very well have CONTRIBUTED to a set of circumstances that HASTENED the deterioration the home but that fact is really what the OP or anyone else facing a similar situation almost certainly has to understand -- these are essentially EMOTIONAL arguments for a quick resolution NOT some logical conclusion to long term issues.
Similarly the whole set of professionals involved in such a transaction very likely will have their own "blinders" on regarding the buyer and in my experience it really takes skilled real estate agents to help keep the deal on track. Simply put, that means that if the SELLER has already priced the property at what they believe is a fair discount it is foolish for the BUYER to make outrageous demands that are not based on any sort of estimated costs but rather things (as other posters have suggested...) including a "penalty" for the hassle of having to deal with these issues.
While I respect the expertise of those who provide consultation regarding the remediation of structural issues, it is foolhardy to ignore the reluctance of SELLERS to willingly accept such reports AND blindly side with these folks hired by the BUYER over the others that they may have talked to over the years -- THAT is really more nonsensical than anything! The seller probably trusted the builder that "a header for a couple of grand" was all that was needed but they probably did not have the time / money / foresight to get that addressed before listing the house so why should they SUDDENLY start using LOGIC to conclude this deal?!?
As others have suggested, the fact is when any inspection reports come back with a significant list of potential repairs the whole process of the BUYER needing to reevaluate their ability to move forward with the offer has to be weighed against the list of NECESSARY repairs -- if the "structural issues" represent too large a financial risk to the BUYER it makes sense to ask the seller to consider reducing the price. If the BUYER demands too large a discount and includes a significant sum for "hassle factor" or just too big a discount for "unknown contingencies" the BUYER should not be surprised if the seller decides to terminate any agreement and tries to move forward with other offers.
Finally the further fact that the "news" of any home needing some sort of structural repairs being rapidly communicated amongst small town builders / engineers / real estate folks should be anticipated by the buyer. In small towns it is not uncommon for all these sorts of folks to cross paths a WHOLE LOT and share stories over a coffee or cold beer. Nobody is going to give "free advice" or any discount to the "out of towner" that extracted a huge concession from the locals....
I leave "care of one's soul" to those who profess expertise in the spiritual aspects of things; when it comes to advice about pricing real estate at point in a transaction I'll side with the folks doing that for a living!
Last edited by chet everett; 06-12-2017 at 10:50 AM..
While you may believe your experience as an engineer is the best preparation for the negotiating the purchase of a home my experience is that most sellers are not driven by purely logical arguments -- if they have been living in a house for decades or merely driving by it daily and the place has not fallen down on them they have a psychological tendency to assume that that any repairs that may be called for by a team of engineers are probably overkill. Of course that sort of attitude may very well have CONTRIBUTED to a set of circumstances that HASTENED the deterioration the home but that fact is really what the OP or anyone else facing a similar situation almost certainly has to understand -- these are essentially EMOTIONAL arguments for a quick resolution NOT some logical conclusion to long term issues.
Similarly the whole set of professionals involved in such a transaction very likely will have their own "blinders" on regarding the buyer and in my experience it really takes skilled real estate agents to help keep the deal on track. Simply put, that means that if the SELLER has already priced the property at what they believe is a fair discount it is foolish for the BUYER to make outrageous demands that are not based on any sort of estimated costs but rather things (as other posters have suggested...) including a "penalty" for the hassle of having to deal with these issues.
While I respect the expertise of those who provide consultation regarding the remediation of structural issues, it is foolhardy to ignore the reluctance of SELLERS to willingly accept such reports AND blindly side with these folks hired by the BUYER over the others that they may have talked to over the years -- THAT is really more nonsensical than anything! The seller probably trusted the builder that "a header for a couple of grand" was all that was needed but they probably did not have the time / money / foresight to get that addressed before listing the house so why should they SUDDENLY start using LOGIC to conclude this deal?!?
As others have suggested, the fact is when any inspection reports come back with a significant list of potential repairs the whole process of the BUYER needing to reevaluate their ability to move forward with the offer has to be weighed against the list of NECESSARY repairs -- if the "structural issues" represent too large a financial risk to the BUYER it makes sense to ask the seller to consider reducing the price. If the BUYER demands too large a discount and includes a significant sum for "hassle factor" or just too big a discount for "unknown contingencies" the BUYER should not be surprised if the seller decides to terminate any agreement and tries to move forward with other offers.
Finally the further fact that the "news" of any home needing some sort of structural repairs being rapidly communicated amongst small town builders / engineers / real estate folks should be anticipated by the buyer. In small towns it is not uncommon for all these sorts of folks to cross paths a WHOLE LOT and share stories over a coffee or cold beer. Nobody is going to give "free advice" or any discount to the "out of towner" that extracted a huge concession from the locals....
I leave "care of one's soul" to those who profess expertise in the spiritual aspects of things; when it comes to advice about pricing real estate at point in a transaction I'll side with the folks doing that for a living!
I agree that if this is a multiple offer situation in a hot market where the house is situation on a uniquie piece of land (breath taking view, recreational lake front (not a bog or swamp lake), etc) then the buyers are in a really bad situation. Regardless I don't recommend anyone buying what they cant afford, if they are already strung out on their down payment and the monthly payments they wont be able to afford to start writing checks for thousands more when they start repairs, let someone more affluent (or most likely more foolish) get the house. I don't care how nice the view is if you have to eat hot dogs and sit around the house for 2-3 years to empty your emergency fund on structural damage.
Bid wars are a self fulfilling prophesy, a bunch of people bidding up properties they cant afford (with a truly affluent person who can afford it in the mix .... what one out of 10 times). Once the banks are brought into line a lot of these issues will evaporate and the only bid wars will be between people who actually have money and significant income/assets, rather than people that have no business even being at the table who are stringing themselves out to their last cent. But that will be up to the feds to start letting banks eat their own bad loans, you will see how fast banks tighten the noose, all these households barely scraping 70k will immediately be out of the market.
With our house if it had come down to it we would have walked away, we offered what we were willing to pay which was significantly below their asking. we did not add a "hassle factor" (I have never even heard of that)basically just materials as I can do a significant amount of work myself, we asked for 3000 in closing costs due to the repair list and they were happy about that. At the end of the day the comps and appraisals all worked out and their original asking was way above market so the deal worked out for everyone.
At the end of the day no one should be writing checks for someone elses emotional problems, you just have to walk away. You put in an offer for what you are willing to pay and that's it, maybe haggle between 3-5k but that's it, if they want "emotional problems" money then you cant bite. I mean unless this lot is in some kind of extremely coveted place and you have the money to play with without suffering.
As far as local contractors there are a significant number that are scum and I would not want them on my property, many are incompetent anyways, have attitudes and a massive entitlement mentality, tons of them are absolute horrors to work with and THAT is why I have learned to do a significant amount of work myself. I don't care what they are doing over a beer or coffee, I am not going to get fleeced by them. I am even politically active and have friends in the senate and I am trying to get my state to buy all the heavy equipment so they can cut locals out of the deal and get bids nation wide and just fly people up to run the state equipment, when I start seeing these slim bags hold the local and state govt over a barrel its time to start cutting throats. But I digress lol. I order most everything online through a mail box or through freight forwarders.
Last edited by pittsflyer; 06-12-2017 at 12:26 PM..
Another thing to consider is the financing - unless you pay cash for the property. The lender may not finance a property with severe defects like that.... another option might be a rehab loan, which is a pain to obtain but not impossible.... talk to your lender about the options. They will find out anyway when the lender gets the appraisal back.
Honestly, it's almost always better to opt for a credit/price reduction rather than a repair. That way the buyer "owns" the repair, and can choose the person they want to do it.
And it seems like the trustees are being realistic about their situation, remind them that finding a new buyer will cost them more taxes, insurance, and other carrying costs, and hopefully they'll be willing to find common ground with you.
Suppose you are considering a home purchase in a nice area with a lake view. It's not an investment property or a vacation home but a home you and your spouse intend to live in year-around. The home is single level with an attached garage, and is built in the late '70s on a modest (not steep) slope.
You learn in the course of inspections that a prior owner, decades before, converted the over-sized crawl space to a basement without permits and in so doing cut into two stem walls and chiseled near two of the concrete piers/posts. An engineering report indicates you need a header for a sliding glass door installed in an exterior stem wall because the door happens to be located in a wall that carries the loading for the garage and the roof. The sellers bring in a general contractor to make "structural repairs" who says the door isn't a serious concern because if it were overloaded, it would no longer open/close properly.
You get another opinion from a building company owner and he says that until you have a header above that door, you really shouldn't park a car in the garage. Not far away from this door, still in the "basement", the inspector points to a vertical hairline crack in the concrete beneath a span that meets up with the outer wall of the garage. He says the retaining wall below needs to be replaced because it is undersized. He points to the wood beams/piers running down the center beneath the house and says the concrete piers shouldn't be sitting on top of the ground — which he believes occurred when the crawl space was excavated. He recommends the posts/piers be replaced and driven down further into the "bearing material". The structural engineer, on the other hand, observes the same and advises only adding grout/caps and new hardware to the wood posts/piers but doesn't recommend outright replacement.
You are about to run for the exits when the building company owner assures you the living level does not show any abnormal signs of settling (after using a a laser tool to check). Indeed, when you are in the house you don't see any cracks on walls, the windows and doors all open/close as they should, the floors aren't slanted, etc. The living areas look and feel sound.
The upshot is, the foundation is doing its job and won't be going anywhere unless, perhaps, there is an earthquake. (And yes, the neighborhood just happens to be located next to a fault, but then again there's nowhere in your entire state where you aren't at risk of earthquakes.) However, then there's that part about not parking a car in the garage because of a missing header and a questionable retaining wall. (Though you wonder if the prior owner, who is deceased, was any wiser and made use of the garage, anyhow.)
If it were you and you loved the home/location/price but it wasn't possible to fix absolutely every last structural issue for budgetary reasons, what would you do? Take your chances that such a home will serve you the way it did for the previous owner, who lived in the home over 30 years, do just select repairs — or walk away entirely?
I'd run away from this house as fast as I could.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Let me be perfectly clear...
Not far away from this door, still in the "basement", the inspector points to a vertical hairline crack in the concrete beneath a span that meets up with the outer wall of the garage. He says the retaining wall below needs to be replaced because it is undersized. He points to the wood beams/piers running down the center beneath the house and says the concrete piers shouldn't be sitting on top of the ground — which he believes occurred when the crawl space was excavated. He recommends the posts/piers be replaced and driven down further into the "bearing material". The structural engineer, on the other hand, observes the same and advises only adding grout/caps and new hardware to the wood posts/piers but doesn't recommend outright replacement. 
