Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hi, all. As some of you know, I have been thinking about remodeling my kitchen for YEARS, as it's, well, really awful. I finally decided that MAYBE removing about 3/4 of a load-bearing wall between the current kitchen and current dining room would be the way to go; the company would, at the same time, SLIGHTLY modify the two passageways to "shift" them by a few inches.
The current wall is 12'6" -- about 30" opening, then 10' wall. It would be changed to 24" wall, then 8'6" opening, then 24" wall. Since it's a load-bearing wall, it requires a beam to support the second floor.
Here's a ROUGH diagram of the space with the wall removed; the CURRENT wall (30" opening, 10' wall) is halfway down the kitchen/dining space and divides it into 2 rooms. Again, the removal WOULDN'T actually be as wide as shown in the diagram, since as noted above I would leave two "short walls," about 24" each, on either side. These would house small between-stud cabinets facing the "upper" part of the room (what I've been calling the "upper kitchen").
There's a full basement underneath so relatively easy access. The wall removal would include relocating 2 outlets (one on either side), removing a wall sconce that's currently on the kitchen side, and relocating a cold-air return about 3 feet to the left. An electrician -- whom I would pay SEPARATELY -- would do the electrical work.
The only other work involved in this project is gaining a few more inches for the "upper kitchen" left and right walls by "shifting" the passageways -- the one on the left from the first-floor bathroom/basement stairs hall to the kitchen, and the one on the right from the kitchen to the TV room -- a few inches. These walls are NOT load-bearing.
The quote from the 1st of 4 contractors (he's actually the THIRD to do a site visit -- I'm still waiting on the first 2 and the 4th to get back to me)? $5,562. I know the beam costs <$500 so all the rest is labor.
I was expecting maybe $3,000 -- and I thought THAT was high. Clearly I am insane.
Any thoughts on the quote??? Maybe it's totally in the ballpark and I vastly underestimated the amount of work/materials involved.
That actually sounds fairly reasonable. Maybe a tad high, but not insane.
One way to cut a chunk of that down is to do the demo work yourself - although a lot of GOOD contractors aren't going to want to take on a smaller job like that, so you might run into a point of diminishing returns.
The outlets etc are basically irrelevant. The cost comes from removing a load bearing wall, and the amount of removal will not matter a lot (unless you make it so little it is nothing more than a normal doorway that can be done with basic 2 x 2x6 header and no engineering needed).
Load bearing walls make it expensive. You will need a microlam or steel I beam with posts. The materials are expensive and require experienced crews and special equipment to install. Anyway you do it will require an engineer, so there is no cheap solution.
Suggestion, it appears you will have to go through your "TV room" to get from the mudroom to the kitchen.
I would very strongly recommend you reverse that. If you need the wall/cabinet space for the kitchen then have the TV room to kitchen route go through the mudroom rather than having the mudroom to kitchen route go through the TV room. It is not shown, but the mudroom must have an outside door somewhere. People coming from outside will have to track their dirty or wet feet through he TV room to get a drink, go to the bathroom etc. A better idea would be to spend the $500 to have an architect provide a more practical layout for you. Some of them are amazing at efficient space planning.
Instead of removing walls entirely can you just put in doorways? In our house we have a double door from the kitchen to the dining room. This goes through a load bearing (formerly exterior) wall of the house, but it didn't require special materials, unusual framing or engineering. Still with the double door open, it is like having a connected room. I have not measured that iI remember, but withthe door open, the opening is about 8 feet wide, maybe a tad less, but it is plenty enough to connect the two rooms together.
The wall removal would include relocating 2 outlets ,
removing a wall sconce that's currently on the kitchen side,
and relocating a cold-air return about 3 feet to the left.
...other work involved in this project is ... "shifting" the passageways
These walls are NOT load-bearing.
I was expecting maybe $3,000 -- and I thought THAT was high.
The quote from the 1st of 4 contractors ...? $5,562.
Any thoughts on the quote???
1) wait for the other quotes to compare to before slicing your wrists...
2) be certain he hasn't included all of the electric work in his total
(it's about guaranteed he included a 'cushion' for having to deal through your guy)
3) analyze the MAN HOURS and/or CREW DAYS on site for a $$cost per unit
to know how many men/helpers? how many days on site?
4) is there a line item for the load carrying beam cost or is it hidden?
5) it was NEVER gonna happen for $3000
6) When all is said and done the 'peace of mind' that the incremental extra (beyond the $3K) should represent...
should have the extra expense forgotten in a couple years
Why didn't you just revive your old thread on this same subject matter???
Because this thread is ONLY and SPECIFICALLY about the quote for removing the load-bearing wall. I've only gotten ONE quote so far!! The other threads on the kitchen were on its design, passages, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoamingTX
That actually sounds fairly reasonable. Maybe a tad high, but not insane.
One way to cut a chunk of that down is to do the demo work yourself - although a lot of GOOD contractors aren't going to want to take on a smaller job like that, so you might run into a point of diminishing returns.
But the demo in this case IS the load-bearing wall, so I think I am misunderstanding what you mean? Could you please clarify? (I WILL be demo'ing the current kitchen with a bit of help -- BUT I can't even order my cabinets etc. until I have the wall down and passageway slightly shifted.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
The outlets etc are basically irrelevant. The cost comes from removing a load bearing wall, and the amount of removal will not matter a lot (unless you make it so little it is nothing more than a normal doorway that can be done with basic 2 x 2x6 header and no engineering needed).
Load bearing walls make it expensive. You will need a microlam or steel I beam with posts. The materials are expensive and require experienced crews and special equipment to install. Anyway you do it will require an engineer, so there is no cheap solution.
All that makes sense, thanks. I THINK he said he would use an LVL beam, which is way less than $500 for a 20' length, though. I could be remembering wrong but I've heard that term from more than 1 contractor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Suggestion, it appears you will have to go through your "TV room" to get from the mudroom to the kitchen. ...
The problem is that that would require cutting holes in MORE load-bearing walls -- the mud room is NEW and not built yet. Still waiting for quotes on that. In addition, the "lower kitchen" side of the wall shared with the mud room wall will be all cabinets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Instead of removing walls entirely can you just put in doorways? In our house we have a double door from the kitchen to the dining room. This goes through a load bearing (formerly exterior) wall of the house, but it didn't require special materials, unusual framing or engineering. Still with the double door open, it is like having a connected room. I have not measured that iI remember, but withthe door open, the opening is about 8 feet wide, maybe a tad less, but it is plenty enough to connect the two rooms together.
That would make a lot of sense for many spaces. Unfortunately, the problems for THIS space are: (1) The opening couldn't be anywhere near the 8-9' that I want (one of the purposes is so that the cook -- usually me! -- will be able to talk to guests in the "lower kitchen" part). (2) It would require pocket doors, otherwise the door swings would be really problematic (either way -- swinging into the "upper kitchen" or the "lower kitchen"). (3) If I did pocket doors, I couldn't have ANYTHING in the walls, which isn't practical, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
1) wait for the other quotes to compare to before slicing your wrists...
2) be certain he hasn't included all of the electric work in his total
(it's about guaranteed he included a 'cushion' for having to deal through your guy)
3) analyze the MAN HOURS and/or CREW DAYS on site for a $$cost per unit
to know how many men/helpers? how many days on site?
4) is there a line item for the load carrying beam cost or is it hidden?
5) it was NEVER gonna happen for $3000
I emailed him back and asked him to please give me more detail -- all he's given me so far is the $5,562 price. I HOPE he has included the electrical; he was actually the one who suggested this particular electrician when I asked him about OTHER work I want to have done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
6) When all is said and done the 'peace of mind' that the incremental extra (beyond the $3K) should represent...
should have the extra expense forgotten in a couple years
I suspect you are right, especially because I had the $3,000 in mind for just the wall and not the passageway "shifting." I will feel better if I get a definitive answer from him about EVERYTHING the quote includes. (Do contractors really think that we just want a dollar amount with absolutely no details? ) I'll also feel better when I get more quotes!
Thank you so much for the helpful replies -- I appreciate you helping me think this through!
You are paying not only for the beam, but additional support pillars for the beam. Most likely a structural engineer. Jacks to hold up your house while this work is done. Floor finishes where the wall was. Ductwork relocation is going to cost you more for a sheet metal guy. Drywall finishes. Shifting an entryway is better understood as demolishing a wall and rebuilding.
This is a pretty major job. Think of it in terms of time. If you were to do it by yourself, how much time would it take? Could you do it in two weeks? Call that $2000 of labor. Another $750 for supplies. $500 to rent equipment. Do you want to have a structural engineeer look over your plans? $500. Insurance in case the house falls down? $250.
That is $4000, and the contractor hasn’t made a profit yet.
How about a certain number of posts? Not doorways with doors, but a couple of plain square columns covered in drywall. I would think that if you have to span 12 feet (if I'm interpreting the sketch correctly) two posts would mean a clear span of only 4 feet, surely not a problem, and one post would mean a clear span of 6 feet, which seems like still not a major issue.
You are paying not only for the beam, but additional support pillars for the beam. Most likely a structural engineer. Jacks to hold up your house while this work is done. Floor finishes where the wall was. Ductwork relocation is going to cost you more for a sheet metal guy. Drywall finishes. Shifting an entryway is better understood as demolishing a wall and rebuilding.
This is a pretty major job. Think of it in terms of time. If you were to do it by yourself, how much time would it take? Could you do it in two weeks? Call that $2000 of labor. Another $750 for supplies. $500 to rent equipment. Do you want to have a structural engineeer look over your plans? $500. Insurance in case the house falls down? $250.
That is $4000, and the contractor hasn’t made a profit yet.
Well, actually, no. No additional support pillars needed (not sure where you got that?), just the beam. No jacks needed -- just 1-2 temporary support walls built from regular 2x4's on either side of where the new opening will be. No floor finishes -- that's another contractor. The ductwork relocation is another $100 (he didn't include that in the original quote); the electrical is $75 per moved item if he does it (he didn't include those in the quote either). It DOES include the drywall finishes. (Note, it doesn't include the between-stud cabinets either -- that's someone else too.)
And yes, technically "[S]hifting an entryway is better understood as demolishing a wall and rebuilding" -- but the part of the wall that's being demolished/rebuilt is about 4 inches. When he came, he said that part would be a simple job since it's so small and NOT load-bearing.
$750 for supplies? A 20' LVL beam from Home Depot or my local lumber center is literally just over $100. That's what all 4 contractors said they would use (but I've only gotten the one quote so far). 2x4's for the temporary support walls are cheap. Some drywall for patching. A few odds & ends (nails etc.! ). What else are you including in the supplies? (I realize I may be missing some things!)
I DO understand that I'm paying for their expertise, and I am fine with that!! But the job is much smaller than I think you think it is, from what you've written. The beam is the biggest/most important part, but even that isn't expensive. So I'm still a bit puzzled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3
How about a certain number of posts? Not doorways with doors, but a couple of plain square columns covered in drywall. I would think that if you have to span 12 feet (if I'm interpreting the sketch correctly) two posts would mean a clear span of only 4 feet, surely not a problem, and one post would mean a clear span of 6 feet, which seems like still not a major issue.
I only have to span 8.5-9 feet -- NOT 12 (see OP text: "the removal WOULDN'T actually be as wide as shown in the diagram, since as noted above I would leave two "short walls," about 24" each, on either side"). All the contractors who've come have talked about installing a beam, so I think that is required for what needs to be done.
I am going to have my local code officer back and run the quote by him. It is probably fine, but it literally is as much as all my new appliances will be, so I do want to check. And of course I'm very curious as to what the other quotes will say -- assuming the contractors get back to me!!
$750 for supplies? A 20' LVL beam from Home Depot or my local lumber center is literally just over $100. That's what all 4 contractors said they would use (but I've only gotten the one quote so far). 2x4's for the temporary support walls are cheap. Some drywall for patching. A few odds & ends (nails etc.! ). What else are you including in the supplies? (I realize I may be missing some things!)
!
I put together a price list for an 8x10 chicken coop and it was over a grand. Apples to Elephants, yes, but my point is that I don't think you appreciate what everything costs in materials. 2x4's ARE cheap, but how many are you looking at? Might be more than you think.
And you have to factor in that he has to account for his drills, grinders, plunge blades, hammers, saws...
And disposing the old lumber and sheetrock...that isn't free either. And his insurance and gas for his truck.
Obviously, make sure you're getting multiple quotes, but I don't think its as easy as you make it out to be.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
