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I was watching an episode of Ask This Old House last week and in one segment they were installing a heat pump water heater. I didn’t know these existed, but they sound good for our hot climate in FL. Even with a concrete block house and an insulated hurricane resistant garage door, our garage temp is 90 degrees most of the summer. Heat pump water heaters use the hot air in the garage and lessen the humidity at the same time to make hot water.
They are expensive though compared to standard water heaters, although they have a 10 year warrantee. They also are noisier. Our utility company recommends them for energy savings. We are all electric here.
Has anyone installed one in their home or have experience with them?
They have more mechanical parts moving, thus more prone to mechanical issues.
An electric water heater is simple thermostat and heating element. Super simple, never breaks.
Very difficult to get someone qualified or good price to fix. Its basically similar mechanics to a small air conditioner. No one fixes those, they simply replace them and toss them. Same goes for this water heater. If you ever have an issue with it, its likely cheaper to replace than fix.
And the warranty is useless for stuff like this. Sure a part will be warrantied and free, part might cost like $5 but the labor is $400. Labor not covered, or exceeds labor reimbursement rate.
I'm not a fan of them for a few reasons. The return on investment is just not there, even under the best of conditions, breakdown is an issue, and the "green" aspect is dubious, given the materials and complexity.
One study that relates to your criteria is here: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60187.pdf Note that the $ savings per year amounted to a little more than $200 even with significant use. For an older couple who use little hot water, total hot water costs with resistance heat can be less than $400 per year, making any potential savings still in the $200 or less range.
Amortize the initial cost and installation costs across the expected lifespan and the savings are minimal at best. Add in the cost of even a single repair and you go into negative territory.
What I have often pondered is a scavenger module on a central AC that would shroud a compressor and use the waste heat from it for a pre-heat tank household water tank, but no manufacturer has picked up on that idea and techs are not keen on making AC more complex. Such a system would have extreme efficiency because water heating would be accomplished at no additional cost while at the same time marginally increasing the cooling efficiency of the AC.
I installed a GE Geospring heat pump water heater in my basement in fall of 2012. i purchased it from Lowes and with the sale price plus their 10 year labor warranty ended up being just less than regular price. There was a $600 rebate from my utility company for purchasing one so it ended up costing right about what a standard electric water heater cost. I have had no issues with it. It runs longer during the winter as the basement is cooler but it still is able to keep up with our usage. I honestly don't know how long it will last but so far, I am impressed with it. My brother even purchased the larger 80 gallon model a few years back for his new house. I love the fact that if we have an extended power outage lasting several days long, then in heat pump mode then a regular portable generator can run it and i'd have hot water! Yes, there is more maintenance on it than a standard one as you need to clean the filter sometimes. I also clean out the coil occasionally so that it works more efficiently.
I'm not a fan of them for a few reasons. The return on investment is just not there, even under the best of conditions, breakdown is an issue, and the "green" aspect is dubious, given the materials and complexity.
One study that relates to your criteria is here: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60187.pdf Note that the $ savings per year amounted to a little more than $200 even with significant use. For an older couple who use little hot water, total hot water costs with resistance heat can be less than $400 per year, making any potential savings still in the $200 or less range.
I don't agree with some of your conclusions. It's worth noting that the study you reference is from 2012. The heat pump water heaters (HPWH) have come a really long way since then in both efficiency and reliability. I installed one not too long ago (in a Mid-Atlantic basement), and the rated energy use of the model I went with (Rheem 50 gal) is $110/year vs $419/year for the equivalent resistive-electric model. Currently, that's better than any other WH type, including fancy condensing gas units even with the super low price of NG right now.
The other big change is how much cheaper these units have gotten. The unit I installed cost $1200. That equivalent electric model is about $600.Even given the study's numbers, $150-$200/year in savings would still pay the difference of the HPWH in about 3-4 years. Not bad for a unit that is warrantied for 10 years, and may be able to squeak a few more years than that. Of course, my utility had a $350 rebate, which makes it an easier decision.
Reliability is always a tough thing to judge, but heat pumps aren't exactly complex machines. The HPWHs do have standard resistance elements as well, so any failure in the HP components won't result in zero hot water.
If your only choice is an electric WH, you have at least an 8x8 room (or ducts), and you pay more than $.10/kWh, they're pretty much a no brainer.
I don't agree with some of your conclusions. It's worth noting that the study you reference is from 2012. The heat pump water heaters (HPWH) have come a really long way since then in both efficiency and reliability. I installed one not too long ago (in a Mid-Atlantic basement), and the rated energy use of the model I went with (Rheem 50 gal) is $110/year vs $419/year for the equivalent resistive-electric model. Currently, that's better than any other WH type, including fancy condensing gas units even with the super low price of NG right now.
The other big change is how much cheaper these units have gotten. The unit I installed cost $1200. That equivalent electric model is about $600.Even given the study's numbers, $150-$200/year in savings would still pay the difference of the HPWH in about 3-4 years. Not bad for a unit that is warrantied for 10 years, and may be able to squeak a few more years than that. Of course, my utility had a $350 rebate, which makes it an easier decision.
Reliability is always a tough thing to judge, but heat pumps aren't exactly complex machines. The HPWHs do have standard resistance elements as well, so any failure in the HP components won't result in zero hot water.
If your only choice is an electric WH, you have at least an 8x8 room (or ducts), and you pay more than $.10/kWh, they're pretty much a no brainer.
You raise excellent points, and with the comment by nice- earlier about also purchasing a full labor warranty, the breakeven sounds more reasonable than in the past.
I will raise a couple of counter-points for consideration. That the study is from 2012 does not change the physics behind the conclusions, any more than the basic properties of heating with wood have changed since the stone age. A larger tank will limit the unit switching to resistance mode as often, but with a trade-off of slightly larger surface area for heat loss. The switching to resistance heat is the elephant inn the room, and I have come to question the yellow sticker ratings, much as they are a decent comparison guide, as fully accurate in real life. As noted in the study, a family that showers all at nearly the same time will skew theoretical efficiencies. A couple who use soaking tubs or rainforest showers can also skew figures significantly compared to those with low-flow showerheads.
My second counterpoint is false economies of rebates and manipulations of costs by the power providers. A rebate of $350 or more has to come from somewhere, unless you think that money grows on trees. The costs are passed on to a broader base of consumers in other ways. For people who have an honest concern about socialism, this is a red flag. While a power company can reduce costs through efficient use of lower cost off-peak power, heat pump water heaters reduce that peak usage less and with a greater complexity than simple switching circuits or timers, which allow savings sharing by consumers without resorting to funded economic manipulations.
My third counterpoint is purely a personal one, that simple solutions appeal more than complex or Rube Goldberg ones that are potentially less reliable. Repeated encounters with Murphy's law have jaded me and continue to do so. Within the past 48 hours I've had to intervene with appliances in my home twice, due to fancy engineering ideas that developed issues. It gets old.
You raise excellent points, and with the comment by nice- earlier about also purchasing a full labor warranty, the breakeven sounds more reasonable than in the past.
I appreciate the discussion. As an engineer-type, I fully admit to spending way too much time thinking about what water heater to install.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
I have come to question the yellow sticker ratings, much as they are a decent comparison guide, as fully accurate in real life.
I certainly won't argue that these stickers are based on assumptions that might not accurately reflect the typical home. As an analogy, body mass index calculations have flaws in specific cases (e.g. most bodybuilders will calculate as obese), but as an average for the population, they're very useful. As an apples-to-apples rating, the HPWH use somewhere between 2-4x less electricity to do the same job. Whether that's a $100/y or $400/y savings would have more to do with how much water is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
My second counterpoint is false economies of rebates and manipulations of costs by the power providers. A rebate of $350 or more has to come from somewhere, unless you think that money grows on trees. The costs are passed on to a broader base of consumers in other ways. For people who have an honest concern about socialism, this is a red flag. While a power company can reduce costs through efficient use of lower cost off-peak power, heat pump water heaters reduce that peak usage less and with a greater complexity than simple switching circuits or timers, which allow savings sharing by consumers without resorting to funded economic manipulations.
As a little-'l' libertarian, I'm not a fan of government subsidies. That said, as you acknowledged, there's more to the calculus driving the rebate. As another example, my power company had a program where they would pay you $20/m during the Summer to have the ability to use a remote controlled switch that could disable your AC compressor during anticipated peak-usage times. As far as I know, this wasn't driven by GOV subsidies, but rather by the PC wanting to avoid brownouts and having to spin up more generation to handle those periods. That, apparently, was worth the cost of the program for a few years, though I will note that they have since discontinued it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
Within the past 48 hours I've had to intervene with appliances in my home twice, due to fancy engineering ideas that developed issues. It gets old.
Agreed. My old washing machine had a simple, spin knob which mechanically controlled the wash cycle. My new one is computer controlled with a digital display and countless sensors. If something went wrong with the old knob (it never did in 15 years of use), I may have been able to repair/replace it for a reasonable amount. If something goes wrong with the complicated circuitry of the new machine, I can almost guarantee it wouldn't be cost effective to repair.
I'm hoping this isn't an issue with the HPWH. Hopefully nothing will break, but if it does, I'm hoping Rheem will honor their warranty.
I was watching an episode of Ask This Old House last week and in one segment they were installing a heat pump water heater. I didn’t know these existed, but they sound good for our hot climate in FL. Even with a concrete block house and an insulated hurricane resistant garage door, our garage temp is 90 degrees most of the summer. Heat pump water heaters use the hot air in the garage and lessen the humidity at the same time to make hot water.
They are expensive though compared to standard water heaters, although they have a 10 year warrantee. They also are noisier. Our utility company recommends them for energy savings. We are all electric here.
Has anyone installed one in their home or have experience with them?
most of the people that responded so far are correct. I wouldn't install one, too complex and costly for little gain if any.
most of the people that responded so far are correct. I wouldn't install one, too complex and costly for little gain if any.
Keep it simple.
Two who responded so far had installed heat pump water heaters & those reviews were favorable.
A few people who had no actual experience with the products were negative.
I'll add my own. I installed a couple of them - the first in 2009 in Phoenix, a second in Phoenix in 2016 (new house) & a third in Michigan this year (new house).. No problems with any of them & the cost per month to run is about $10, cheaper than all available alternatives, quite possibly even less than solar.
The last two were rheem, both came with a twelve year parts warranty & I was able to purchase an extended warranty for labor to six years? For about $60 bucks. I paid $899 for the last two, with no utility rebates.
The technology isn't new or complicated, these are just basically 8kbtu air-conditioners running in reverse. No big deal & no cheaper way to heat your water. Fwiw, if you're in an area with nasty water, you could "win" a new/free water heater with that ten year parts warranty - the cost difference between a "premium " water heater with a longer warranty & the heat pump water heater is nearly nothing..
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