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first off, thanks for the response.
as for my comment 'like everyone else' i meant like everyone else that has been responding in this particular thread.
and yes i own the apartment and NO its not a cheap little apartment (i am in hawaii afterall). Now alot, and i mean alot of people in hawaii own and reside in apartment complexes. you could call it a result of living on an island. Understand that owning a traditional house in hawaii costs at minimum $750,000 and thats usually for an old beat up 2 bedroom house. On the other hand apartment complexes run anywhere from $350,000 and up. Anyways enough about that.
As for particle board construction, i think one of the main reasons most ppl hate it is that most ppl including myself have not seen any quality made products from particle board. and no they don't all come from china. So with that its understandable why most steer clear of it regardless of price. here's an example; take a speaker box for instance... one made with particle board and one made with MDF (which is no where near the same) and the one thats been contructed from PB comes apart rather quickly versus the one made with MDF. now if i made a speaker box with ply the result would be the same as MDF. okay i know i'm comparing apples and oranges here but i'm sorry it's rather simple to me and most out there. the other reason most cabinet makers don't seem to make cabinets out of MDF seems to be the price as well as it seems that would cost more then ply and be rather heavy in the end. Although i have heard of some ppl getting 100% custom made cabinets locally made with MDF, they just take quite awhile to do it. some would 'slow pace of life' or sometimes jus plain lazy. again thats a hawaii thing or rather an island thing.
now as for chinese made cabinets i plan on getting them tested IF, thats a big IF i choose to purchase them. but once again being in hawaii my options are limited according to my budget and being on an island (and if you haven't noticed hawaiis market in general doesn't really follow the rest of the US). i understand you view point and i respect that but if they were all that bad (meaning the evil chinese cabinets) SERIOUSLY we would see alot of more ppl with health issues etc on the news, etc.
Now i've read thru all 23 pages or so here and while most of the posts are rather informative some are borderline at best. I'd like to get your opinion on asian made products in general? do you buy everything 'made in the USA'? or are you only talking specifically about kitchen cabinets made in china or all of the other 'made in China' products as well? what about the rest of asia? do you purchase... made in japan, taiwan, germany, russia, etc? It just seems to me that you have a hatred for chinese made products in general. don't take it personally but honestly thats how you come off to me after reading the whole thread.
You talk about buying american, what about buying local? i believe in buying local when i can and staying away from big box stores. now the same holds true for my home... most of the stores i've visited are local run business and i'd much rather put income into my local economy that the big orange, etc. and the bulk of them are accredited, licensed, etc.
So, once again thanks for the all the good info (along with your personal biased opinions). this thread has definitly helped me with my home remodel.
Well my friend first I want to say thanks for the reply and I always enjoy conversing with some one as obviously intelligent and educated as yourself.
I am aware home prices are way over priced in Hawaii. But home prices are dropping like rocks in Hawaii too. And will continue to do so for many many many years.....despite what this crooked, corrupt lying conniving government tells the nightly news to report to the Sheep who walk on American soil. That said I'm just saying be careful to put too much money into your remodel because it is lost money forever.
I have said that MDF is rarely found but you continue to mention it. I suspect you see more of it on the island. Interesting. It is rarely used on cabinets but not because of quality or cost but because of the weight factor. Since 90% of all cabinets sold in North America are of stain quality rather then paint finish, you just don't see all MDF. But I also don't see MDF core with wood veneer.
PB is superior to plywood. But the modern newer generation of PB. MDF does not warp as well as PB. Plywood warps as you look at it. Go in the back of the big box stores and look at the stacks of sheet goods. Look at the stacks of plywood. All the top sheets are shaped like a banana right? Now look at the PB and MDF sheets. Flat as flat can be.....right? And they will remain flat for a thousand years. Again, for those who insist on calling particle board "fake" usually call it that because it is a man made sheet of wood. Just remember plywood is also a man made sheet of wood. That would make plywood just as fake. Then when you add in the warping qualities, that makes plywood less superior. But more expensive.
I never heard of a private individual testing a product. I can assure you all China made cabinets are infested with sulfur and formaldehyde. A deadly combination of poisons to be in your home. These products violate all CARE initiatives and are very illegal to produce here but are allowed to be imported. Interesting.
Oh there is news about the danger of Chinese made cabinets and drywall. Florida especially made world news when so many homes with that drywall was making scores of people sick. And no insurance would cover the removal of this junk. If you want to really read the score I can send you an excerpt from my book. I can't tell the whole story here due to the censorship.
Oh yes I believe in supporting local business. I don't know your economy but from what you say it seems there are not many cabinet companies. Well most of them went out of business here too. Just last week the largest cabinet company in south Texas closed their doors forever. Me? I'm about to retire. Ain't no business anymore and I can't make a living speaking and selling books anymore either. I always try to buy American. I do refuse to buy from a number of cultures and countries which again censorship disallows me to mention. And as you know there are some things we all need which just are not made in America anymore.
I don't hate all Chinese made products, most are cheap junk but that is what Americans want to buy. Proof of that is drive by any Walmart parking lot and look at the mobs of bargain junk buying consumers. And yes I do have a grudge how the invasion of China made cabinets have contributed to the demise of the business I love. But revenge is sweet and even they are closing their stores forever too due to the economic depression.
You read all 23 pages of this thread? Wow. Strangely I received more REPs from my first post in this thread then any other. Who would have known?
DESERTSUN41---I'm planning a complete kitchen redo & got a price on kraftmaid(Garrison Maple). Was very expensive. I see a similar product in the Merillat Masterpiece line(Gallina Maple). Any recommendations of a Merillat or Kraftmaid wholesalers in my area? Im in NJ zip code 07757. Appreciate any help.
DESERTSUN41---I'm planning a complete kitchen redo & got a price on kraftmaid(Garrison Maple). Was very expensive. I see a similar product in the Merillat Masterpiece line(Gallina Maple). Any recommendations of a Merillat or Kraftmaid wholesalers in my area? Im in NJ zip code 07757. Appreciate any help.
Well ya got good taste. Garrison is near the most expensive of Kraftmaids 33 price points. Merillat Masterpiece is not cheap either. Masterpiece is fine fine furniture quality cabinetry. Just about second to none. I even feel it's better then Woodmode which is even more expensive then Masterpiece.
Well I grew up in the shadows of your zip code. Honestly about 80% of all cabinet dealers in America have closed the curtains forever during these deep deep economic depression times. No one but no one is spending one thin dime on their rapidly depreciating asset (their home). I used to deal with Reico in south Jersey but I think they closed all their NJ locations. I believe they went from 27 stores to 3 last I heard. If you can travel to Cape May area then I highly recommend Just Cabinets and Furniture. They do sell Kraftmaid as well as 3 other brands which I approve for 50% off list price. I believe they have 21 locations but only one in NJ, perhaps the PA or Delaware locations might be an easy drive for you.
I have to tell you to be careful putting high quality big money into any home right now. Not long ago we were still telling people that you could recover 90% of your investment on kitchens and baths. Now nothing helps. There are no home buyers and there are no banks lending and we have (true honest non government statistics) unemployment rates that exceed 25%. People need jobs to buy homes and there ain't no jobs. That said just be careful not spending too much on all the best of the best of the most beautiful. It will be just pizzing your money in the salty ocean breeze.
desertsun41--Thanks for your help. Going to try and check out Just Cabinets & Furniture some time this week. Will let you know how it went. Thanks again!!
DesertSun: What are pros and cons of wood vs. thermofoil? And is therea "good" thermofoil vs. a "bad" thermofoil? What is a good brand if we go with thermofoil? If you deal with strictly wood, maybe someone else can anser these questions?
DesertSun: What are pros and cons of wood vs. thermofoil? And is therea "good" thermofoil vs. a "bad" thermofoil? What is a good brand if we go with thermofoil? If you deal with strictly wood, maybe someone else can anser these questions?
I went into this subject many times so don't want to bore others, you can use the search function to find this subject that I have gone over in the past.
Real quick....I don't think that there is a good and bad thermofoil. That would be like saying Reynolds aluminum foil is better then store bought. It's all aluminum foil that you just wrap sandwiches with. Thermofoil is nothing more then aluminum foil with a color and/or a texture on it.
Generally a door and drawer blank with thermofoil is all one piece, call it a door or drawer head which is made out of MDF. This is the opposite of any normal cabinet door which is 5 pieces....a center panel, the stile (sides) and rails (the top and bottom). The stiles and rails are connected by either a miter or a cope and stick.
Back to the MDF door head. A design and outside edge will be routed out of it and this blank is heated. The aluminum sheet is layed over the blank and it conforms to the shape of the door head. Same is done to the back and the seam is sealed on the outside edge of the back side.
Now you have the most durable, stain resistant cabinet there is. Thermofoil is common in apartments because tenants are harsh pigs and are hard on everything because it ain't theirs. It's pretty hard to destroy a thermfoil cabinet door.
Putting this product in a house is not really a good idea. Few if any home buyers would want this material. And most times a thermofoil kitchen is white which is even more of a turn off for home buyers.
I"m guessing you are identifying these cabinets correctly. Thermofoil is as described above. You may also be misidentifying it for melamine. which is more of a vinyl cover but is more commonly placed over particle board rather then MDF.
Hi desertsun41,
We are planning a kitchen remodel. We worked with a KD from HD (Big O) on recommendation from someone. The KD has been pretty good and we priced out Thomasville. With several incentives (free upgrade to all plywood, X% off, etc) and options we chose - the quote for just cabinets was around 24K and was recently reduced to 21K (another promotion).
After stumbling on this thread, we started to look at Merillat Masterpiece. I hope to have their quote by mid week. We went to Rieco in KoP, PA.
I gather you don't work with Merillat anymore but did previously and was wondering what your thoughts were about the link below: http://worldvillage.com/people-who-r...very-impressed
Some of the recent comments concerned me.
The KD at Rieco mentioned that Thomasville and Merillat Masterpiece are similar quality with Thomasville being a notch better. Do you agree with that statement?
Hi desertsun41,
We are planning a kitchen remodel. We worked with a KD from HD (Big O) on recommendation from someone. The KD has been pretty good and we priced out Thomasville. With several incentives (free upgrade to all plywood, X% off, etc) and options we chose - the quote for just cabinets was around 24K and was recently reduced to 21K (another promotion).
After stumbling on this thread, we started to look at Merillat Masterpiece. I hope to have their quote by mid week. We went to Rieco in KoP, PA.
I gather you don't work with Merillat anymore but did previously and was wondering what your thoughts were about the link below: http://worldvillage.com/people-who-r...very-impressed
Some of the recent comments concerned me.
The KD at Rieco mentioned that Thomasville and Merillat Masterpiece are similar quality with Thomasville being a notch better. Do you agree with that statement?
TIA,
CJ
Oh CJ you fell for scam. First of all Home Depot DOES NOT DOES NOT DOES NOT employ Kitchen Designers. They are nothing more then cabinet sales people who used to work the cash register and was promoted to cabinet sales. They are given a 3 day course on how to use the design program. They are trained to design kitchens a certain way, and that way is fast. Its about productivity, not creativity. Most of all, you will have no idea what you are missing in regard to design possibilities because they don't know anything it about to tell you. Those people you incorrectly called Kitchen Designers, their total life experience in the home improvement industry amounts to hanging a curtain rod for Grandma.
Please don’t go to those big box stores again. Go to an independent kitchen dealer who has a certified designer on staff. It is the equivalent of buying house plans as is or hiring an architect to design a home to your personal needs and desires. The kitchen, quite frankly, deserves no less. The big orange who only wants your little green gave you a price of $24,000? How's it feel to be raped? To be violated? Do you know that same kitchen is sold at almost any small kitchen dealer for $12,000? Nearly all cabinet stores sell for at least 50% off list price. The big box stores sell for full list price or MSRP. Same as sticker price on a car. No one pays sticker price except the uneducated consumer.
I can assure you Merillat Masterpiece is going to cost plenty even with the usual discounts. Masterpiece is top quality furniture grade beauty. Better then Ethan Allen furniture. Thomasville is very nice but it can't compare with Masterpiece.
Yes I carry Merillat still, have so for 33 years now. More then 6000 kitchens sold over 33 years. Does that suggest anything? It's the good stuff for the money. I would trust Reico what they tell you. I know them.
That site you posted. When was the last time you ever saw anyone who was satisfied with a product stop their busy life to get on a rating site to post nice things? Exactly, it has never happened. But if you don't like something you will jump right online badmouthing that product till you get tired of doing so. Merillat is the largest and oldest cabinet manufacturer on earth and Merillat is only one tiny branch of Masco building products which include Quality Cabinets and Kraftmaid as well as others.
I have toured 4 of the 6 Merillat manufacturing plants across the USA. I would never do that kind of work so I can understand hatred coming from employees.....who by the way chose to do assembly work 8 hours a day while standing in the same footprints all day long without moving. I would hate my job too if I had to do that. Merillat quality is high but not the best in the industry. If you want the best then you need to dig deeper into your pockets. It just is not necessary.
Keep in mind no matter what cabinet manufacturer, it's just a stupid wooden box. They are all made out of plywood or furniture board. Period. What makes a box better? Beats me and I'm into the engineering of this product. You want 3/4" thick boxes? Why? You holding up a whole house or a slab of granite? You want expensive plywood box carcass? Why? No one but you know whats behind the faceframe and under the counter top. What a blatant waste of money upgrading to plywood sides. Take the 25% savings and do PB boxes and upgrade to conveniences that will make your life easier like pull out trays and garbage bins. Now that is money well spent. You deserve no less.
Before I write a another book I'll shut up there. Good luck.
If you want some real complaints about the big orange that will convince you then check out these links. In my book I go into it in more depth.
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Kitchen Express?
