Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's good to hear from people who respect old houses! That's kind of rare in my neck of the woods.
I live in a teens era Prairie Style home that is very much origional. It has all the origional windows, origional kitchen cabinets and all moldings, built in cabinets and moldings. We even have the origional gravity hot water heating system, including the origional boiler, which has been converted from coal burning to natural gas.
The reason I bring this up is because my neighbors are about to bastardize their own historic 30's era tudor revival bungalow by adding a second story and wrapping it in vinyl. It's gonna look horrible and I worry it will hurt my property values, not to mention trash the character of our street. How does one get others to see the light and appreciate good architecture?
Ohhhh I would love to see pictures of yours!
Can you encourage your neighbors to hire an architect?
A good architect can help add space and functionality without destroying the character of a home.
I just closed on my dream house, an 1873 Victorian farmhouse. I move in next week and can't wait. I know there is work to be done (probably neverending :-)) but I am so excited I just don't care!
It is hard to explain the pride and joy in living in a historic or vintage house that has the character, architecture and details that have mostly long since fallen by the way-side to those who live in newer homes and wouldn't have it any other way. While our eyes glaze over at the mass produced Mcmansions and boxes (actually mostly garages with massive driveways with a tiny bit of house hiding behind) spreading over the landscape, we lovingly touch the trim, and admire the windows and tile of older homes, whether our own or others that we see and strive to get into for a tour haha.
And would those window people please stop calling to try to convince me that cheap vinyl windows would increase the value of my house dramatically- Uh, no, they would plummet my Spanish Revival to near worthlessness, I'll keep my mahogany arched and casement windows thank you very much.
Our home isn't designated but probably could be, we are waiting for our neighborhood to be designated as a district -much less expensive.
As an architectural designer I can commiserate with the inappropriate choices so many people make in a vintage home, whether replacing the finishes with what's "hot" at the moment or adding disproportionate and badly detailed additions. For a recent project in a historic district, a 800 s.f. Revival Bungalow to which a master suite addition and redesigned kitchen was desired-a requirement of nearly 500 new s.f which would have overwhelmed the charming cottage-my solution was to place the Master above the existing detached two car garage appearing to be a separate carriage house, but sneaking in a staircase and breezeway that barely touches the original house- a small breakfast nook addition allowed a reworked compact but efficient kitchen. It fits right in with the neighborhood context and passed historic review.
I'm all for keeping houses original when you can but even coldjensens house had additions- even if they were 100 years ago. It shows that changes can be done without ruining the original character and proportions of the house.
I'm all for keeping houses original when you can but even coldjensens house had additions- even if they were 100 years ago. It shows that changes can be done without ruining the original character and proportions of the house.
Very true. In addition to the 1868 and 1850 additions, we actually had to build a new kitchen when we moved the house. The old one was built out of a former milking barn and was impractical to move. It was a shame to lose it, but it simply could not be saved. It was not nice at all, but it was historic. (It was a shame that we had to move the house, but it came without the land it was on.). The new kitchen was built using salvaged materials wherever possible and tied in as best we could. We had to choose an era to copy becuase it was impractical to build an 1836 or 1850/68 kitchen. My wife would not cook on a wood fired stove, and the kitchen was detached in those days to protect the house from fires. We went with 1930s becuase that was about when the old milking barn was attached to the house as a kitchen (we think that was when, primarily because it had aesbestos siding) and that is the earliest period that is practical to duplicate for a modern lifestyle (practical gas appliances, indoor plumbing, and electric wiring).
Inexperienced old house visitors do not know that it is new, but it is obvious to informed afficiandos. This is not my ideal. My ideal would be a house that has never been changed or modified since it was built, except maybe electrical upgrades for safety. Those are very very hard to find. I know of one in Califronia that was built at the turn of the century, I cannot remember seeing any others. I would settle for a mostly original that does not have an "updated" kitchen. However I am otherwise very happy with our house.
We had a lot of tings that we had to undo, and return to the original condition. Half of the porch was removed and replaced with a huge sunroom. We removed the sunroom and replaced the wrap around porch that was prent in the 1868 additioan and maybe since 1850. The cost was huge and we lost a lot of appraisable square footage, but the wrap around porch is really nice and looks much better than the sunroom did.
We had many other decisions to make. One fireplace mantle had been replaced with an oak mantle that is probably from the 1920s. THat had been patined over several times. Since we had no idea what was there originally, we went stripped the paint off and left the mantle there. We removed some 1970s marble slabs that had been glued to the front of the fireplace, but the brick underneath was in such bad shape that we had to tile it over. One room had been converted to an office (doctor's office) and a bathroom/hallway in 1946. The bathroom had some rot which turn out to go further than we thought when we removed it. When we were done, the whole thing was gone, including one wall of the office. I was not about to pay a fortune to reinstal a bathroom that did nto belong there and which we did nto need, but then we had no idea what the room was before it was made into a bathroom and office. For now, we just left it since we ran out of money. However someday, we will make it into a library. It definitely was not a library in 1836 since only the very wealthy had more than a few books. It probably was not a kitchen since kitchens were detached. The bedrooms are upstairs. It is too small for a back parlor. Thus we just have no clue what it might have been originally, or even after the 1850 and 1868 additions. Maybe is was a library back then, or a music room, who knows?
WHen a house has historic modifications from different time periods, it is difficult to choose which time period to go with, both inside and out. Our house in California was built in 1893, but then extensively modified in 1930. Very large casement windows replaced the original double hung. THe front parlor was expanded onto one side of the porch. INside, some rooms were still 1890s, some were updated with newer moldings and all fo the doorways were converted to arches (and the pocket doors removed unfortunately). There was an addition in the 1940s to conver the sleeping porch to an apartment for GI housing during the war.
Taking it back to original, woudl have cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars and would require the destruction of the 1930 and 1940s historical features. Choosing a style for inside decor was difficult. We ended up using victorian style in the main common rooms, but 1930s for the kitchen, and left the 1940s addition in 1940s style. Some people woudl call it a mish mash, others called it a walk through history. It was pretty neat, but not a true one era historic home.
After we sold it, they gutted the kitchen, removed the original California Cooler cabinetry and the 1930 sink and replaced it witha combination of modern features and 1950s coca cola appliances and features. It would have been neat looking in a 1950s house. I looks pretty dumb there.
in every house that i have been involved in, any modifications from the 1970s forward was removed and returend to an earlier condition. Modifications from the 1940s through the 1960s were addressed on a case by case basis based on what was there originally and the owners particular desire.
All really old houses are modified. They did not have bathrooms. they did nto have electricty, gas, or plumbing. They had no HVAC system other than the fireplaces. Thus, to some extent, old house lovers are stuck living wiht some modifications.
Yeah, kitchens are probably the biggest bugaboo in living in old houses. I mean, if you really want to go authentic- say good bye to refrigerators, gas stoves that actually regulate temperature accurately, and more than two feet of countertop and two cabinets, much less the dishwasher and micro haha.
If our house was as old and historic as yours I would probably be like you and strived to get the most historic feeling that also worked that I could. Our kitchen was an awful '60s remodel that didn't have anything worth saving and we did a more contemporary layout because it was small and had to function but outfitted it with custom cabinets inlayed with glass with a simple Arts and Crafts etching pattern that was echoed in the custom handmade and slightly irregular tile that makes up the backsplash. There is a dishwasher and refrigerator but they are paneled so are not so noticeable. The over-riding design concept was for the cabinets and the tile work (selected and designed to compliment the Batchelder tile on the fireplace) to be noticed and for the fixtures and appliances to be mostly secondary. It fits in the style of the house I think, and because I love to cook and entertain it also functions very well.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
The "Historically Accurate Nazi's" would disapprove but we all have to make decisions and compromises on what will work for us.
I did manage to save the California Cooler in the project that I designed and am proud of standing my ground on that.
In older homes they had tables instead of counter space.
A kitchen can be modernized tastefully (usually at great expense) and maintian a historic atmosphere. Some things, like sinks simply are not copied, but that is in part because modern sinks are better designed for convenience. We decided to sacrifice conveninece for authenticity, but not too many people woudl do that. You simply cannot go strictly purist and keep a kitchen practical, but you cna come close I think.
We used cabinets taken from a 100 year old house that have counters above the cabinets, but there is very limited space. Most of the counter has little clearance under the upper cabinets. We took a maple butcher blcok island from the same 100 year old house and used it, despite the fact that it was certianly not original to the 100 year old house. Sometimes you just have to make concessions.
We were fortunate to find a working 1927 fridge on Craig's list for $100. Some guy had it in his garage as a beer fridge. We had to stash a modern fridge in the sunroom for freezer space, but the old fridge looks good in the kitchen and works pretty well. It weighs a ton for such a tiny thing though.
We found a 1930 sink and a 1928 or so magic chef stove (beautiful, but needs restoring) on E-bay. The maple flooring came from a 1900s masonic lodge that was torn down in a nearby city. A colored glass window came from a turn of the century convent that was also razed. We hid the dishwasher and a dish sink behind a secret door that looks like a cabinet (because it is a cabinet salvaged from a 165 year old house). The microwave is hidden in the base of the island. All the doors were salvaged from an 1865 house that was being demolished. A kitchen nook was built out of pews from a bar that got them from a 150 year old church. A nook may not be historic, but at elast the pews and the table are from the appropriate period. Once the stove is restored and installed the only thing that really looks out of place in the kitchen is the island and it is obviously old, so only knowegable people know that is it probably 40-50 years old rather than 90-100. One light fixture is obviously modern as well, but it is old fashioned looking. We will probably replace it someday with an antique or a true reproduction, but for now it is sufficient.
We were not able to hide the GFCI outlets required by code, but I discovered that we can put in a GFCI breaker in th emain panel, so someday, I will replace all of the outlets with older looking ones. (You cannot make grounded outlets look old but at least we can use round ones instead of the obviously modern rectangular GFCIs.
Fortunately you can still buy the push button light switches and switchplate covers from a company in Southgate Michigan, so that was an easy choice.
One of the most difficult choices is light fixtures. Old light fixtures usually need to be re-wired to be safe. Some of them are cost prohibitive to re-wire and impractical to re-wire yourself. Further, many old light fixtures are very plain. Just a bulb hanging from a wire. Nice antique fixtrues are available if you get into the 1920s and up. Some converted oil or gas fixtures can be really nice if oyu can find them (our dining room light fixture is an electrified whale oil lamp). Sometimes, it makes more sense to buy a really good reproduction, but those cost a fortune. Over time, i will probably rinstall all real historic light fixtures except in a few places where we paid substantial sums for really good reproductions.
We did use drywall in the kitchen, but we used commercial 5/8" drywall which has properties simlar to plaster (strength as well as sound qualitites - but still to the same. However with quotes of $15,000 for plaster walls, 5/8" drywall will siuffice).
Wow! Sounds awesome. I admire your attention to detail and perseverance in taking the time and energy to get things just to the way that you want. Bravo!
I love old houses. But, I'm not a purist. (though I respect those who are)
My house was built in 1915, but has been modified a lot over the years. It has just enough original detail to still have that old house charm.
I won't remove any original detail. But where it's already been removed, I don't have a problem with installing something modern. For example, the bathroom had a vintage 1970's vanity with cultured marble top, and a 1980's 3-panel mirrored medicine cabinet. So, I replaced these with a mission-style vanity/medicine cabinet combo from Lowe's. I know it's still cheap, but at least the style works with the rest of the house better.
Another huge fan of "historic"(older) homes here. I'd expand, but I think Coldjensens covered a lot of the topics very well.
We too ripped out an early 1990s rehab of our 1929 kitchen and have been returning it to its near original look and configuration, but it's a long and tedious process that always requires patience and sometimes requires retreating and reapproaching the solution from another angle.
It is fair to say that being 100% original in one's rehab/restoration isn't necessarily always a good fit for modern needs. Tastes and lifestyles were obviously different, not to mention technology. So sometimes it may make sense to alter a structure to fit those needs, such as introducing a laundry room. But if one takes the time to "listen" to the structure and keep the design elements in mind that are in harmony with the rest of the building, one can often do a good job of an evolutionary rather than revolutionary change that makes sense and will stand the test of time. And your additions/alterations can and will become a lasting part of the history of the home. Rarely do these structures stay frozen in time, but we can all help by making changes that make sense.
After all, we are all just stewards of these buildings, and typically the structure will outlast us as occupants. So I personally believe it is our duty to not only be true to and fulfill our needs, but to also preserve what is special, unique, and character defining for those that come after when we make changes for our time.... and for those that are here today, so they too can learn and appreciate architecture from another era.
As far National Register listing, there really isn't much benefit for many residential structures beyond the "honor". There certainly isn't any downside. The US Secretary of the Interior(Parks) administers the program, and more information can be found here:
Except for specific landmark structures, the NPS doesn't actually impose any regulations or oversight on structures given National Register status. Also remember that National Register status can be applied to an entire neighborhood as well, versus individual structures(the inventory includes the contributing structures).
The only oversight comes when applying for Federal historic tax credits, in that they(typically your state's Historic Preservation Office) have to approve your design choices for the credits. But in the Federal arena, this only applies to commercial(income producing) structures, not residences.
Some states, like NC, have enacted similar tax credits for residential structures though, as can be seen here:
And in cases such as this, there is a distinct financial advantage to National Register listing.
But for many cases, it again is simply an honorary benefit, which does seem to carry some "status".... as it after all does carry some weight of "pedigree" since there is a substantial bar(documentation) to meet to obtain the register recognition. And I suspect this can help resale for those specifically interested in historic homes.
If it were me and I had an older home that I thought was "significant" enough to obtain National Register status, I'd definitely make the effort to apply. And if my state had historic tax credits associated with register status for residential homes, I absolutely would apply.
Al
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
