LEAD Testing Procedure Prior to Interior Construction? (floors, Home Depot, windows)

[Lovegasoline]

I’m wondering if anyone can offer some input regarding interior LEAD PAINT testing.

I live in a large apartment building in NYC that was built in the late 1920s. Due to its age, it is assumed to have lead paint. The building was poorly maintained by the last landlord and was purchased last year by a very shady landlord, a disbarred attorney, who systematically uses lies, deception, and disinformation with complete disregard for the welfare of the tenants. The new landlord tried to unsafely make a repair which involved the structural integrity of the building and as a result the Department of Buildings issued a vacate order for a room in my apartment until the repairs are corrected.

The landlord will do anything to avoid the expensive repairs. Instead of repairing, the landlord tried to evict me by suing me in both housing court and Supreme Court based on false allegations. He lost both those lawsuits and then the NYC housing department (HPD) and I both sued the landlord to force him to do the repair. The Department of Buildings repeatedly issued him Stop Work Orders after his attempts to subvert the system and repair without having met the necessary engineering and safety requirements.

The landlord was required to comply with the Department of Buildings and formulate a Tenant Protection Plan (TPP), which outlined how the tenants would be safeguarded during construction. Because several tenants would be living in their apartments during construction and various walls and ceilings would need to be demolished in order to do the repairs, one safety point was that before construction commenced, a LEAD test to check for the presence of Lead in wall and ceiling paint in the construction zone would be performed. An EPA certified lead tester hired by the landlord came and took wipe samples (also called ‘swab’ or ‘swipe’ samples) from the floor, windowsills and windows ledges. The landlord’s attorney sent me a copy of the test results, by an EPA certified lab, and landlord’s attorney claimed ‘the swipes seem to look good’ (whatever that means).

My concern is that these test results are just another elaborate deception by the landlord to evade the additional expense of using an EPA certified demolition firm to deal with the presence of lead.

Here is my question: is the ‘lead wipe test’ an accurate test for the presence of lead currently contained within walls and ceilings? These walls and ceilings will be demolished/pulverized and the resultant demolition dust may be exposed to the apartment dwelling area. Is the swipe testing method an adequate test for this, or is an actual paint sample test and/or an XRF test necessary to check for lead content currently IN THE WALLS? My concern is that the lead ‘wipe test’ is an industry test only effective if used AFTER an actual lead abatement has been performed, and only tests for RESIDUAL LEAD DUST inside the dwelling that may have been released during the lead abatement procedure.

Can anybody tell me if the wipe test is an accurate test to ascertain the current content of lead in the walls or ceiling prior to a demolition?


Thanks!

[Cosmic]

You got me clueless about what that is supposed to prove.

I've had a fair amount of experience in that lead testing / removal mess. The rules may vary state to state, I know them as per MA.

In general the only valid test method I know of in the field is where you use a razor knife and a small cut is made thru all layers of paint down enough to expose bare wood under the paint. Something like a nick on a sharp edge of say a door or some other wood. In general you do not try to sample flat surfaces with this method. Those are usually scrappings if required.

Then a drop of what is essentially a nitric acid solution is applied to that entire cut area. If any of the layers of paint turn black that indicates a positive test.

It can get to be a bit complex, there can be false positives. The only sure method is a lab test that can give not only the presense of lead but a concentration amount. You have to be careful with them lead testing guys. Many are tied into a kickback scheme with the lead removal folks. One tries to make work for the other.

In your case I would also warn about getting very shrill about this subject, might be counter to your own interest. In really bad situations and depending on how it is regulated, the costs can even exceed the value of the property. Peeing contests can be nice but sometimes you must use common sense.

The way I used to approach these situations was first do some of the typical cut type tests, then if in real doubt do a bunch of scrappings, crush the whole bunch, sieve and take a representive sample of that sample and have a good lab test done on a small amount. Lot of stuff maybe I might not want to say in public about this subject. It ain't what a lot of folks assume.

In general you never want lead paint or any other substance containing lead in the property but getting from that having it stage to not having it can be a chuckle in some areas. Again I would use some care, get a bunch of the emotion out of the situation, understand it from many angles. You may well result in getting the property condemned if not careful. Everybody can lose.

[Cosmic]

Just because a building is old, do not assume there must be lead based paint.

I did one project and the building dated from the 1900's and we could find no evidence of lead paint anywhere and wound up doing a bit of a dance with the Lead Mafia. I tested that sucker before, top to bottom and found squat, we even had stuff lab tested. In the final inspection to get the certificate of being lead free, poof..... they by magic found $8000 worth in a few spots. I guess the car payments were due.

Normally if lead paint is on large areas like ceilings or walls, you would never demo them, especially in a complete manner. Maybe do very careful holes to do work. One solution is just to recover with say new drywall. The lawyer guy might claim all sorts of things but the contractor doing the work might also see it different. Lead based paint is one thing you have to deal with on a pretty regular basis.

You have all that crap about the paperwork and rules and then there can be the real World. Just try to keep it between lines. Folks live with massive amounts of lead paint on something like a normal basis in most bigger cities.

Also know to be "Lead Free" not all lead paint has to be removed.

[Poltracker]

Run to Home Depot get your own test kit (they are inexpensive) and do your own tests. The lead "wipe" test is going to tell you if there is any loose lead dust laying around or lead on the surface of an object. If your LL began construction already, then they should have found the lead if it was there. It will not tell you if lead is present under a current layer or three of paint. That is the point of encapsulation. Most LBPs were used on metallic objects and trim work (wood) not on actual plaster or sheet rock walls.

[Cosmic]

Most of those consumer test kits are basically worthless IMHO.

I doubt you will find a lot of lead in dust, not a very common thing. In an old building is it more common for the older buried layers to maybe have some lead, the newer stuff as after painted layers will not. The best technique is to do as I said before. You use a razor knife and make a sliced cut at an angle to expose all layers, hopefully with some layer area of each available.

The paints after a certain date rarely had any lead, maybe something for the 60's on. Even old paints did not have lead. Demo of plaster walls it is questionable what you might get. The more danger is in if old painted wood is scrapped and then sanded. A definite no no without knowing exactly what you got.

You really want to understand what the owners testing guy did, by what methods and what they claim to have found. I'm not a big fan of DIY testing if you don't have either the correct materials or a clue how to do it. Lots of ways to get results in error. Even with the best of techniques you can get errors. Hopefuly the results correlate within the same area / room. If you got lead in one spot, should get consistent results where the same paint seems to be used. Even that can not be true for reasons that sometimes are difficult to explain.

I once had a customer who was worried about a very nice mantle surround during a rehab, which was going to be tested at the end. So I had removed it prior to the final tests and had it professional stripped. Wood turned out to be a butternut which looked horrible as raw wood, but these clowns also play a game where the wood must be in its "Final State". In this case the tester sort of demanded it be painted again but I just sealed it and reinstall it. Yup, they tried to claim it had lead paint but gee, it ain't got no paint. I still get a chuckle out of that one. They can not dictate how the place is decorated. We won that one. It did get repainted after, more than one way to play the game.

The entire affair can be more than claimed and it does not always operate as advertised. Beware of testing in general, I would not try to do my own using cheap store bought kits. When in doubt get additional opinons before signing expensive contracts. Hopefully you get a honest tester fully independent of the removal folks. Never allow the removal folks to test and claim there is lead present. Some states may prevent them being in both businesses.

[Bergenite]

You can hire someone who uses a XRF device to test the paint. It will test below the surface of the paint.

[Lovegasoline]

Allow me to clarify:

The question is simplicity itself.
Is the ‘wipe test’ an accurate test for lead in walls and ceilings, even if that lead is encapsulated? That is all I am asking.

There's a lot of speculation taking place based on posters' personal experience but unfortunately it has no direct bearing in this case.

These walls and ceilings will be COMPLETELY demolished for the construction, there are NO half measures of poking small holes: entire floors of joists will be replaced. This isn't a scrape and paint job. The demo was attempted previously illegally against several active Stop Work Orders before the owner was shut down by the city, and the dust traveled throughout and contaminated several apartments. This is plaster/lathe construction. If there is lead present, it will alter the type of firm that can perform the demo, as they will need to be EPA certified and use caution and special procedures in material handling, rather than contaminating the building.

There is no threat of condemning the building. This is a large apartment building. Numerous apartments HAVE ALREADY had lead abatements performed at one time or another as ordered by NYC, generally apartments that had young children at the time Lead complaints were filed with the city (by knowledgeable tenants who were aware of the danger lead presents). Thus, there is no doubt there was lead paint used throughout the building, and due to the age and the fact that it is a large rental building, where painting operations are generally performed by the building management (and the builder) I think it's safe to assume Lead is here, and if not exposed, it is encapsulated.

Rather than Lead Sampling firms being in cahoots with lead abatements firms for kickbacks, I assume the opposite: the sampling firm is either in cahoots with the owner and/or the type of test ordered was one deliberately specified and designed to give a negative Lead result, based on an INAPPROPRIATE test for lead dust rather than testing for lead in the walls/ceilings that are planned for demolition. In this way, relying on the technical ignorance of tenants and other personel, and using deception, the owner meets the obstensible requirement of conducting 'a lead test' and proudly shows the results which are designed to mislead. The owner hopes the tests and his lawyer's deceptive follow up puts the issue to rest leaving everyone confident about the safety of the enterprise. If he is found out, he can later claim an error was made in the type of test conducted or otherwise have his attorney handle the issue. We are not talking about a responsible building owner: we are speaking about a very wealthy notorious cutting edge NYC slumlord who has been refining his practice for decades, and who operates almost solely on disinformation, deception, and shady attorneys...this owner and his previous partners wrote the book on modern slumlord practice, aggressive removal of rent regulated tenants, and gentrification. There is not a single thing this owner has done that has proven to be as he has stated...none of his claims and actions have held up under scrutiny, he is not used to being challenged, he is completely corrupt, and is a disbarred attorney: he is used to bamboozling people and then if he senses a challenge that will reveal the truth, he uses his attorneys to assault the threat and his attorneys are as corrupt as he is. If you live in NYC and unfortunately have had occasion to be exposed to the operations of a character like the one we are facing, you would understand the deal. You’re not in Kansas anymore.

There is no way the construction can precede with small holes and avoidance of evasive demolition. ENTIRE floors and ceilings must be demolished. This is not the issue of a few paint chips or cracking paint: during demo there will be MASSIVE CLOUDS of atomized paint, plaster, and dust being exchanged between apartments in the area of the construction and the debris will be dragged through the property, potentially contaminating the living quarters where young children dwell.

I repeat:
The question is simplicity itself.
Is the 'wipe test' (floors, window sills, window ledges) an accurate test to detect for presence of lead in walls and ceilings, even if that lead is encapsulated?
That is all I am asking. If it is not an accurate test, the health of tenants are deliberately put at risk. Only if an EPA Lead Certified demo firm handles the demo and materials will all this be handled safely. But that will cost the owner some more money. Everything the owner does is to maximize profit, he is a sociopath and has no concern whatsoever for the health and welfare of the tenants, in fact, he wants the tenants OUT and replaced with tenants he can charge 4x more for the same apartments. The owner has tried everything in his power to avoid doing this repair safely or even at all, including trying to sue as a means of intimidating the tenants. He lost in ALL of those cases and now is being forced to do the repairs by the city. The owner is not one to become reformed, so I am trying to understand his new deceptions, in this case dealing with the issue of lead. If people are made sick, it will be too late.

Thanks again for any input. It is greatly appreciated.


Thanks.

[Cosmic]

This so called swipe test probably can't find dink. More than likely is it just a test patch that could capture failed paint chips or dust if the painted surfaces were in that bad of condition. Sort of stupid because in most of those cases you can just pick off a few chips from any of the peeling surfaces.

Your basic problem is not having the folks who supposely regulate the building / construction really that interested in your problem. If they give him a permit you are SOL.

Probably about your only real option is to have an independent firm test it, go to the building dept, prove that the areas to be demo'd would require control above a normal job. If he has that process wired you really are in trouble.

But you are also assuming the lead Mafia works in your interest. They really don't in too many places. They typically have their own vested interest. In MA most of them had either a prison or drug type background. State put them thru training programs to give them a job after their prior adventures. Be careful who you are trusting.

In a lot of those demo jobs, you might not even be able to remain in the building. There is so much more to the game than you seem to assume. You got to understand your own local rules.

If this guy is really this bad and is willing to take risk and has very good contacts, yeah you are in big trouble. No matter what type of testing is performed if he has control, results will probably be the same.

Your real options are probably to either move or fight back with some type of independent testing that you will control and attempt to use the city permitting / inspection procedures to have some influence on what might happen. Lots of luck. This swipe thing probably don't mean squat. He probably knows it, if the paint is not in bad repair. Not a normal situation.