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You get about 3.413 btu for each watt/hour with electric heat, resistance style like you have. With a heatpump you can achieve about 3 times that amount with the same energy used, it all depends on outside temps. As the outside temp drops that multiplication factor also decreases.
Why just four feet? Are you saying that because 4ft is all that's usually exposed and insulate-able, or beyond 4ft it doesn't make much difference?
A key factor in the effectiveness and cost effectiveness of insulation is usually expressed as "Delta T." Delta T is the difference in temperature between what is on one side of the insulation compared to what is on the other.
If you have a one degree difference, then it takes a tremendous amount of time to pay back the cost of the insulating material. If you have a 1000 degree difference, just about ANYTHING you use for insulation will have a fast payback.
With hot water, the spot with the greatest Delta T is that first bit of hot pipe extending from the junction on the heater. It is often copper (which transfers heat readily), contains the hottest water, and is often left uninsulated where it can become an effective radiator. This is made even worse because that section of pipe is vertical, forming a natural thermosyphon, with the hot water coming up the center of the water column, and cooler water cascading back down into the tank along the inner walls of the pipe that has been radiating heat and is cooler.
By insulating that section, you get the most bang for the buck out of your insulation purchase, and you usually not only get the entire vertical section, but enough horizontal pipe that you reduce the entire thermosyphon effect.
This pipe is also usually easy to find, doesn't require breaking into walls, and is well within the capacity of the average homeowner to safely insulate.
Phish Head - was what I said harsh? If so, it is because I am tired of lies and false justifications being presented as fact by people who should know better and by people wanting to "sell" whatever. I have no use for them, and I am of the opinion that members of the public who do not think on their own, but follow such "leaders", are the downfall of our country.
If you give me feel-good nonsense, I can't use that to make a sound determination of what is right or wrong. Give me real facts and bottom line and don't sugar coat or slant, and you do me one of the greatest blessings any human can confer on another - factual education. I've been that way for as long as I can remember. I never believed in the tooth fairy, Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus - ever - even as a two or three year old. I have no intention of starting now.
Local heating contractors will know if a "regular" air to air heat pump is worthwhile in your area or not. A water sourced heat pump, although more expensive to buy initially, will definitely work like "Joe the Bear" - only question is how to pay for it, and if you want to go "open loop" and run well water through the unit, or "closed loop" where you run water and usually some source of antifreeze through the unit and a buried closed loop of pipe.
If your local utility will give you an "energy audit" that might be a good first step.
Do keep in mind that ALL electric heaters are EXACTLY 100% efficient, except for heat pumps, which can give you more than 3412 BTU per KWh consumed. Very important to understand this, the baseboard heaters you have are EXACTLY as good as any other electric heating device WHATSOEVER, only a heat pump would make sense as a replacement.
You could put in an air sourced heat pump without the usual "induction furnace" helper heaters, and just let your existing baseboard units do this.
Wood or coal would be my choice, but, like Beavis, I think "Fire is Cool"... your mileage may vary. Being in the Northeast and in a cold part of that, I would think coal. Take a look at some of Coalman's threads, if you have anthracite available it's hard to beat, really. Like most things that will get you ahead of the curve, it involves work that most people don't want to do - think about it - this is EXACTLY why these activities get you ahead of the crowd, the crowd isn't willing to do the work....
All other consideration aside, I set mine for my own convenience. When I turn on the hot water alone, I want to be able to put my hands in it without adding cold. Cost is less of a factor, for me, than that convenience.
But I don't get a very long shower, because the hot water depletes rapidly if I am running a high ratio of hot:cold. I can't get a decent fill of a tub at all. Which is fine with me, but my guests complain. I wish the HWH was designed so I could easily switch temperatures on demand.
My mother used to keep her's at a low setting, as a consequence glasses especially never got really clean. I would turn it up when I visited and then wash her tableware. She would then ask what I did differently, which was merely the hot water being at 120 (she kept it at 105-110). I keep my own at 130, I'll eat the little bit of extra electric cost.
On the original question. Can you drop the heat from 120 degrees to 110 degrees and not have to worry about bacteria? The answer is that it won't make a difference. Neither temperature is high enough to insure sterilization if that is what you are worried about. Most residential hot water heaters do not get hot enough to achieve this anyway as you need to be in the 180+ degree range. Unless you are a restaurant, hotel or hospital, it should not be a concern if you are using soap and cleaners.
Does lowering the temp save energy? Yes it does, a lot of it. It takes a considerable amount of energy to raise the temperature of water and aside from paying for the initial heat, you are also paying for losses that are caused by conduction and convection. The bigger the heat difference, the faster the loss and the more money you are paying for nothing. People mitigate this by insulating their hot water heater. But what they don't figure out are the 1000s of gallons of hot water left in the pipes in the house over the course of a year.
This happens when you turn on the hot water from a faucet. Before you feel any hot water, you are going to fill up that pipe with gallons of hot water, probably more than you end up using, and then when you shut off the faucet, all that hot water in the pipe gets cold. It's especially bad if there is a long run of pipe as you can be talking about upwards of 20 gallons. If you filled it with 150 degree hot water, its gonna cost you more than 110 degree hot water. How many times does this happen over the course of a year. I don't know about you, but I've got better things to spend my money on.
Your best bet is to turn the hot water heater down to its lowest setting. Anything higher and its the same as going outside and lighting up money and burning it.
Wow, they are building these shacks different these dazes.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbollo
It's especially bad if there is a long run of pipe as you can be talking about upwards of 20 gallons. If you filled it with 150 degree hot water, its gonna cost you more than 110 degree hot water. How many times does this happen over the course of a year. I don't know about you, but I've got better things to spend my money on.
Your best bet is to turn the hot water heater down to its lowest setting. Anything higher and its the same as going outside and lighting up money and burning it.
H,mmmm normal water supply tubing / piping that holds over 20 gallons in the run from the hot water heater to the facuet. Wowzer, my old engineer brain went out on over load. I got to check this one out.
OK, actually how much water is in the piping in a typical house? I did it for 1/2" Sch 40 pipe, had that easy in the handbook. One foot of pipe holds 3.658 cubic inches of water. 20 gallons of water is 5548 cubic inches. We are talking a piping run of something a tad over 1500 feet. Must be some shacks in your area. God I would need a bike just to get from the kitchen to the bedroom. We are talking over a quarter mile.
Your more standard shack might have a piping run of maybe 50 - 60 feet actually installed, even that is on the longish side of things. Working that backwards, we get something like .65 gallons in the typical piping, yep about two quarts, so that is the actual amount of water to lose heat in a more common house. Could do the math and work out the costs but yawn, already know it ain't squat. Turning the temperature down 30 degrees does nothing to really cut your bill.
I use one half a MCF of gas in summer for hot water per month. At the current billing rate that is about $4 for the actual fuel. We are talking like 15 cents a day. Just to put it all into perspective. I got an ancient Rheem but that puppy is pretty efficient and I got the outlet tubing insulated. I actually have about a quart of water in my pipe from hot water heater to the facuet upstairs in the bath. Maybe about a pint to the kitchen.
O' no, another grand theory bites the dust. I wanted it to work so bad. H,mmm not only would you have big losses in that 1500 feet of piping in the huge house but it would take forever for the hot water to get there. Turn on that hot water before I go to bed, so it will be there by the time I get up. Why ain't I got no pressure at this here facuet???
Always be able to ball park any situation first before using it as an example for any theory.
Where, exactly, is that savings supposed to come from? If you are used to taking a ten minute shower at 100 degrees, and you have the shower on as strong as it goes, it doesn't mean Jack if you turn your water heater lower. You'll have to adjust the mixer valve to use MORE heated water to mix with the cold. That is simple junior high physics.
The ONLY difference is the few pennies saved because the insulation of the tank and pipes aren't perfect.
I may have missed some of this argument but what I think people are trying to do by turning the hot water heater down is not necessitate keeping the hot water tank hot for the 23.5 hours of the day when there is no hot water demand. Sure, you need to use more hot water in the mix when the setting is down, but with it down the hot water element or burner isn't cycling all day to keep the hot water hot when hot water isn't needed. A insulating blanking will help.
Personally, I want the hot heater as hot as it will go because it is more effective for the dishwasher and washing machine. But, we have little kids so for now, we keep it at a safe (lower) level.
The best way to save without making home improvement changes is to make some lifestyle changes.
I live in the PNW and it gets pretty cold in the winter. My home is also all electric however I do have a woodstove which I use only when the temp is below 25 degrees.
I save on my cooking stove by cooking large amounts at one time and freezing the extra. A quick reheat in the microwave uses a lot less than the stove.
I have throw blankets on all the chairs and couches and extra blankets on the beds. In winter, I dress in sweats and heavy socks and use the blankets if I am sitting. I usually keep the temp in my home around 55 degrees.
I close off any rooms I am not using and open them up only when the woodstove is going to chase away the dampness. My woodstove is centrally located in my home so it heats all the rooms very easily. I turn on the electric heat in the bedroom about 15 minutes before going to bed and turn it off when I enter the room. By the time I am bundled up in the blankets I never notice the cold.
I have nightlites in hallways and bathrooms so the lights can be out until a room is entered. All my lamps have 60 watt bulbs except for 2 used for reading that have 3 way bulbs.
My electric bill for two months is approx $50.00 in the spring and summer and hits a high of about $200.00 for jan/feb.
Of course, if you have small children, you would have to modify this plan somewhat. The best thing to do would be to make it a habit for everyone to be in the same room in the evening until bedtime. That way you are not heating or lighting the entire house all the time.
Look around and see where you are wasting power. You will be surprised how much a few changes can help you.
By all means look into a freestanding woodstove or pellett stove. for about $2000 it will heat your home and most woodstoves have a cooktop that is great for soups and stews.
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Wow, they are building these shacks different these dazes.....
