Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > House
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-21-2016, 10:17 AM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,216,414 times
Reputation: 1435

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
It's slow to heat up but it's constant once it does and maintains a very even temperature. Properly installed and sized there is nothing you can't do with in floor compared to anything else.




Unless you have outdoor boiler plain water is fine. The oxygen in boiler water is consumed and becomes "dead" and will no longer react with the metal. You want to make sure there is no leaks, even small ones. Very little or no fresh water should be needed.



While you can add a filter forced air introduces it's own set of problems for air quality.

If you live in a place where it freezes and you dont put glycol in your boiler, You are just asking for expensive problems. All hot water boilers that I have ever installed require gycol for their warranty to be effective.

Just what problems does forced air add? Im just curious. Anyone who has changed their filter knows just how much dirt is in the air. Without the circulation the dirt is still there just all over everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-21-2016, 10:28 AM
 
3,925 posts, read 4,090,105 times
Reputation: 4999
We have Passive radiant floors. Its called a ground basement. Of course they don't work until the house temperature drops to about 50. Then the difference between the 55 degree ground temperature basement and the 50 degree temp in the house above cause the "warm" air from downstairs to rise. With this system the house never drops below 40 degrees.

Of course, this is a tertiary supplemental system. We heat with wood and back up electricity. Although we only use the electric occasionally to warm up the bedroom slight before bed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2016, 11:24 AM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,216,414 times
Reputation: 1435
Quote:
Originally Posted by slyfox2 View Post
We have Passive radiant floors. Its called a ground basement. Of course they don't work until the house temperature drops to about 50. Then the difference between the 55 degree ground temperature basement and the 50 degree temp in the house above cause the "warm" air from downstairs to rise. With this system the house never drops below 40 degrees.

Of course, this is a tertiary supplemental system. We heat with wood and back up electricity. Although we only use the electric occasionally to warm up the bedroom slight before bed.
I dont know where you live but Basements freeze all the time. Generally you need to get down to 15 feet or greater below grade to reach 50F when it is below freezing. Then of course it depends on if you are on clay or rock or sand. Concrete is a fair insulator and will not transfer the heat from the ground to the concrete very well. An example of this is roads. Take a look at the ramps that lead up to bridges that are made of Concrete. They will freeze along with the bridge long before the asphalt road will freeze. But even if it was a perfect conductor you could only expect a small amount of heat to be transferred. Lets say you have a 1000 sq ft concrete floor in your basement. Under perfect conditions you might get 15 btu per sq ft if your room temp was 32 and your ground temp was 50F. if the concrete would pass all the heat and the ground temp dosent drop. Both unlikely. You could get about 15000 btu of heat into the room. However in reality, you may get 1/3 of that. But even 15000 btu is insufficient to keep the room above freezing if the floor above was unheated and below freezing.
I do a lot of walk in freezer work. Many are sat on an existing slab with no prep work to the concrete slab. In general there is about a 50 BTU per sq ft penality in doing this. That is 50 BTU per square ft that needs to be added to the refrigeration capacity if the freezer is kept at -10f to keep the freezer operating the same as the freezer with the insulated floor. Its a lot of heat if the room is -10. But if you do the calculus you will find that the same floor will transfer about 4 btu per sq ft with a 15f temp difference between the soil and the indoor air temp.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2016, 12:34 PM
 
4,690 posts, read 10,337,858 times
Reputation: 14882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe33 View Post
If you live in a place where it freezes and you dont put glycol in your boiler, You are just asking for expensive problems. All hot water boilers that I have ever installed require gycol for their warranty to be effective.

Just what problems does forced air add? Im just curious. Anyone who has changed their filter knows just how much dirt is in the air. Without the circulation the dirt is still there just all over everything.
Funny, I have direct experience with residential boilers (no glycol, straight water - including the one I owned that was a century old), commercial boilers (same deal, straight water) and closed loop geothermal (glycol based coolant). Heck, the boilers my folks have are dual-use, they provide the hot water to the sinks and showers as well as the in-floor system.

But maybe it never freezes in central Montana... er, nope, scratch that. I didn't look at the warranty info on the boiler, but the simple fact that it has one cold feed in and 2 hot feeds out should indicate that it's circulating pure water.


As for issues with forced air? Maybe they're related to the AC side, but rusted out coils on the air handler side every 15 years, fans that fail about every 5~7 years, pinhole coolant leaks, condenser units that need yearly cleaning attention to work efficiently, the noise of the whole system as it kicks on and runs (yes, some are less noisy, none are silent like hydronic), etc...

I'm suffering with forced air for the AC needs here in GA. If I ever move where AC isn't needed again, it'll be to a property with out forced air.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2016, 01:02 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,770,941 times
Reputation: 17862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe33 View Post
If you live in a place where it freezes and you dont put glycol in your boiler, You are just asking for expensive problems. All hot water boilers that I have ever installed require gycol for their warranty to be effective.
I've never heard of boiler manufacturer requiring Glycol for the warranty but I'm not all that familiar with how many gas and oil boiler manufacturers offer their warranties. I would imagine freeze damage is not something they are going to cover no matter what. I know where I live water is standard in boilers and it can get down to perhaps -10.Perhaps you can give us example of one these warranties.

Unless you have specific concerns about freezing such as an outdoor boiler or a really cold basement it's an unneeded expense. I have a boiler that is almost 40 years old and if history is any indication it's going to be operational for another 40 years. Granted it's a coal boiler built to much higher standards but it's not going to make up that much of a difference.

Quote:
Just what problems does forced air add? Im just curious. Anyone who has changed their filter knows just how much dirt is in the air. Without the circulation the dirt is still there just all over everything.
For starters inevitably some dirt and dust is going to make it into the system as it ages, dust is primarily dead skin cells... it's organic. You get a little bit of moisture and you have you're own little science experiment going on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2016, 01:58 PM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,216,414 times
Reputation: 1435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_M View Post
Funny, I have direct experience with residential boilers (no glycol, straight water - including the one I owned that was a century old), commercial boilers (same deal, straight water) and closed loop geothermal (glycol based coolant). Heck, the boilers my folks have are dual-use, they provide the hot water to the sinks and showers as well as the in-floor system.

But maybe it never freezes in central Montana... er, nope, scratch that. I didn't look at the warranty info on the boiler, but the simple fact that it has one cold feed in and 2 hot feeds out should indicate that it's circulating pure water.


As for issues with forced air? Maybe they're related to the AC side, but rusted out coils on the air handler side every 15 years, fans that fail about every 5~7 years, pinhole coolant leaks, condenser units that need yearly cleaning attention to work efficiently, the noise of the whole system as it kicks on and runs (yes, some are less noisy, none are silent like hydronic), etc...

I'm suffering with forced air for the AC needs here in GA. If I ever move where AC isn't needed again, it'll be to a property with out forced air.

Lucky them with their 100 year old system. They sure dont make them like that anymore do they. However, For each one like that Ive seen, Ive probably replaced 20 others for one reason or another. Generally because they froze and ruptured.
Ive been doing this for 40 years and have had zero ruptures and few pump failures in all this time of systems that I installed. But I have replaced many ruptured systems that used water only and replace many pumps and valves due to junk in the water from the corrosion.

The OP's original intent was for in floor heating. In floor heating is highly susceptible to freeze damage if power goes out or system failure or just even forgetting to leave the heat on and go somewhere for a few days and get a cold snap. Especially if you have a multistory house. It is silly not to protect yourself with antifreeze. Would you drive your car in the winter without it?? Probably not.

Yes, there are open systems on the market where the same water is used to produce both hot water and radiant heat. However the only systems that are legal anymore that dont have water stagnation issues are prone to producing condensate on your floors or dripping down onto your ceilings during cooling season because they must run water constantly thru the entire piping system to keep the water from stagnation.

Now with that being said, with all my experience, I personally use 4 different heating systems in my house 1 heat pump in the kitchen and living room area, 1 Williams gravity furnace in the hallway in case the power goes out and there is no one home and 2 propane gas furnaces that heat the rest of the house. Normally heating is done with wood but sometimes you have to leave. The heat pump takes care of heating and A/C for 8-9 months and the rest is for redundancy and really cold times.

Im just trying to help. Take what you want from it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2016, 06:31 PM
 
621 posts, read 1,109,289 times
Reputation: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_M View Post
Funny, I have direct experience with ...
LOL. Based on how your comment reads, it's almost as if you have none.

If your contention/conclusion is that city water can feed a boiler, make one pass thru the boiler to HW fixtures, AND recirculate the balance of the fill to meet the heating needs of the structure thru a directly connected loop, then you have no understanding of codes, or how boilers are piped, or fouled. That's how your post reads.

Code does allow for boilers to feed an independent domestic source thru an approved heat exchanger. The isolation provided by the HX accommodates the use of closed loop boiler additives like glycol or nitrites while protecting the domestic water quality so long as the boiler feed has an approved and routinely certified backflow prevention device. The HX also provides the ability to maintain 2 different temperatures for DHW vs heating water as well as a regulated pressure in the boiler vs city pressure for the DHW.

The casual reader who may dabble in DIY modifications needs to understand the importance of isolating domestic hot water from any heating loop to insure no chance of cross contamination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_M View Post
As for issues with forced air? Maybe they're related to the AC side, but rusted out coils on the air handler side every 15 years, fans that fail about every 5~7 years, pinhole coolant leaks, condenser units that need yearly cleaning attention to work efficiently, the noise of the whole system as it kicks on and runs (yes, some are less noisy, none are silent like hydronic), etc...
.
You're comparing apples to animals.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2016, 10:02 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,770,941 times
Reputation: 17862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe33 View Post

The OP's original intent was for in floor heating. In floor heating is highly susceptible to freeze damage if power goes out or system failure or just even forgetting to leave the heat on and go somewhere for a few days and get a cold snap. Especially if you have a multistory house. It is silly not to protect yourself with antifreeze. Would you drive your car in the winter without it?? Probably not.
If anything it is going to be less susceptible, typical installation is going to be in concrete which has a lot of thermal mass. It takes a long time to heat up but also takes a long time to cool. The exposed pipes are going to be the most susceptible to freezing but this is going to apply to any boiler system.

Quote:
Yes, there are open systems on the market where the same water is used to produce both hot water and radiant heat. However the only systems that are legal anymore that dont have water stagnation issues are prone to producing condensate on your floors or dripping down onto your ceilings during cooling season because they must run water constantly thru the entire piping system to keep the water from stagnation.
You use a coil inside the boiler for domestic hot water, it's completely separate than the boiler water.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2016, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,243 posts, read 36,884,312 times
Reputation: 16373
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceshots View Post
Buddy of mine put in radiant heating when he refurbed a cabin into a permanent home in central Ontario. The temperature drops to -40 at times. He has no problem keeping the house heated with the radiant flooring. He has hardwood, no carpet.

He does have a gas stove but it is more for atmosphere, or really cold days.
And you are correct. The posters saying that radiant heating does not work in cold climates don't know what they are talking about. Radiant heating is widely used in Northern Canada and Alaska, but for it to work it must be properly installed.

Why would anybody install rugs over a radiant floor? That makes no sense. Floors of hardwood, laminate, ceramic tiles, granite, marble, or just bare concrete work well with slab heating.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2016, 12:40 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,770,941 times
Reputation: 17862
Quote:
Originally Posted by btuhack View Post

Code does allow for boilers to feed an independent domestic source thru an approved heat exchanger. The isolation provided by the HX accommodates the use of closed loop boiler additives like glycol or nitrites while protecting the domestic water quality so long as the boiler feed has an approved and routinely certified backflow prevention device. The HX also provides the ability to maintain 2 different temperatures for DHW vs heating water as well as a regulated pressure in the boiler vs city pressure for the DHW.
Correct, the domestic hot water supply has it's own loop and the water supply to the boiler is protected by a backflow preventer. The backflow preventer is often mistaken for a pressure release valve because it has a vent on it. There is two check valves on either side of the vent. If the valve on the boiler side begins to leak it will leak from the vent, time to change the valve.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > House
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top