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So it sounds like the problems you've seen are not necessarily due to the FP equipmnent itself.
If a breaker falls out, it's a simple process to reinstall it. Just make sure the breaker's off first.
Making a determination as to the exact cause of a problem is under the licensing rights of a properly licensed electrician and not a Professional Real Estate Inspector, unless of course the Inspector also holds a current and valid electricians license. To find the cause of the problem would potentially require actions that only a licensed electrician can perform. Even in your home state of New Jersey I would expect that is a requirement. Are you, or your partner, a licensed electrician/electrical contractor?
As for reinstalling a breaker that has fallen out, here in Texas, and dependent on the local municipal regulations, only a homeowner who can prove homestead exemption on the property, or a properly licensed electrician, can perform any physical work on a residential electrical system. That would include reinstalling a breaker that fell out. The concept is, and has been for quite some time in many areas, that reaching beyond the plane of the dead front cover requires an electrical license. Is that not the law in New Jersey?
As for reinstalling a breaker that fell out, it fell out for a reason and I would certainly not replace it! Even if it were something as simple to repair as a loose connection, you would not know that without violating the law and reaching beyond that plane of the dead front cover. More important than the law is the the issue of what caused it to fall out? Will it fall out again? Is it a major or minor issue? As well as other questions. Again that has quickly entered into the gray zone of licensing laws to make those determinations.
By attempting to replace that breaker you are placing not only yourself at risk at that moment in time, you are also placing the current homeowner and possible new buyer at risk. As an Inspector you should well know that people do not concern themselves with that which is not broken. By replacing the breaker it is no longer broken. What will you tell your client, and the current homeowner, to convince and help them understand the importance of having the issue reviewed by a properly licensed electrician? There is no better convincing than a branch circuit that is inoperative with a breaker that fell out!
Yeah, you haven't had a great time, until you go to inspect an old FP panel and when you go to take out the first breaker and the top half of the breaker comes out, and the corroded and burnt bottom half stays welded to the bus bar. That has happened 3 different times to me with an old FP panel, and never have had it happen with any other brand, not even the totally crappy Zinsco panels. On first glance in the panels the breakers looked to be in decent shape, but once those breakers came apart, you could see just how bad it was due to loose connections
Maybe living in the very mild climate of Oakland CA has spared home owners here the problems experienced in other locals...
We don't have snow... no one has A/C where I live except the one house that upgraded his service when he had A/C put in. The panels are located indoors and not exposed to the elements.
I've pulled a number of electrical permits and found the inspectors to be very thorough...
My last permit was for a 3 meter service up-grade at a Duplex... I had the luck of having the Senior Electrical Inspector with 4 new hires each individually checking my work and then discussing their findings... it passed and the Senior Inspector commented on the neatness and completeness of the job...
I own several properties with Federal Pacific... had one zinsco... that property was sold... never ever had an issue with any of them.
Making a determination as to the exact cause of a problem is under the licensing rights of a properly licensed electrician and not a Professional Real Estate Inspector
A home inspector can't determine the exact cause of a problem without being licensed in that trade? Licensing Rights? What?
A home inspector can't determine the exact cause of a problem without being licensed in that trade? Licensing Rights? What?
Bergenite,
You are drifting from the thread and attempting to bait me into a game that nobody here cares to read. Just do your job as a licensed Inspector in New Jersey and I will do mine as a licensed Professional Inspector in the great State of Texas.
Yeah, you haven't had a great time, until you go to inspect an old FP panel and when you go to take out the first breaker and the top half of the breaker comes out, and the corroded and burnt bottom half stays welded to the bus bar. That has happened 3 different times to me with an old FP panel, and never have had it happen with any other brand, not even the totally crappy Zinsco panels. On first glance in the panels the breakers looked to be in decent shape, but once those breakers came apart, you could see just how bad it was due to loose connections
Bydand,
I've been lucky so far and that is why these panels should be deferred to a licensed Electrician such as yourself. AS you stated they can look good on the outside but unless they are pulled and checked they could have problems below. A good Electrician who has experience with actually working on them is the true expert with them.
As a Sparky, who has seen plenty of these no doubt, I have a question that might help others as well. I have not heard a lot about this in posts, etc., and the Sparkies I've talked to do not run into a lot of these. When they do the owners generally agree to replace them so their experience is mostly tear it out and replace it. Since Reliance Electric stopped shipping and John Cifrodella bought out all their stock and created FPE Inc. there has been a dwindling supply of parts for FPE panels. I see that some have picked up second sourcing the Zinsco parts but all that seems to be around for FPE are left over and used. What is the supply of parts like for FPE's these days?
I've been lucky so far and that is why these panels should be deferred to a licensed Electrician such as yourself. AS you stated they can look good on the outside but unless they are pulled and checked they could have problems below. A good Electrician who has experience with actually working on them is the true expert with them.
As a Sparky, who has seen plenty of these no doubt, I have a question that might help others as well. I have not heard a lot about this in posts, etc., and the Sparkies I've talked to do not run into a lot of these. When they do the owners generally agree to replace them so their experience is mostly tear it out and replace it. Since Reliance Electric stopped shipping and John Cifrodella bought out all their stock and created FPE Inc. there has been a dwindling supply of parts for FPE panels. I see that some have picked up second sourcing the Zinsco parts but all that seems to be around for FPE are left over and used. What is the supply of parts like for FPE's these days?
Honesty I don't touch FPE panels and breakers except to inspect them if a homeowner thinks there might be a problem, or to replace them. I tell them ahead of time that I don't like that type panel and that while I will be happy to look them over, if there is anything wrong I will not repair one. I also tell them I will be more than happy to give them the names of a few guys that will do work on them if I find anything wrong and they want to keep them.
Thank you! And I don't blame you for not wanting to work on them. The Sparkies I was referring to have the same feelings. Most of what we see here for FPE's are, as stated in my previous post, in bad condition. It is unfortunate that we are in such a litigious society as many times the Sparkies are the targets if they do agree to repair those in bad shape, regardless of what they tell the owner, and something entirely different from what they worked on in the panel decides to fail.
For the benefit of homeowners out there reading this:
Whether it is an FPE, Zinsco or damaged/defective other manufacturers panel the owners need to listen to the Electricians recommendations! Your electrical system is, for the most part, hidden out of view. Many times it is the hidden parts that fail and cause the electrical fires we see today. The Electrician is the expert on the system and the Inspector is a good guide to get you there! If you feel uncomfortable with either individuals assessments then call in another Electrician. After all, you would not think twice about getting a second opinion if an auto mechanic states you need major work when everything "Looks" normal to you. Why take a chance on such an important thing as a potential electrical failure?
Maybe living in the very mild climate of Oakland CA has spared home owners here the problems experienced in other locals...
We don't have snow... no one has A/C where I live except the one house that upgraded his service when he had A/C put in. The panels are located indoors and not exposed to the elements.
I've pulled a number of electrical permits and found the inspectors to be very thorough...
My last permit was for a 3 meter service up-grade at a Duplex... I had the luck of having the Senior Electrical Inspector with 4 new hires each individually checking my work and then discussing their findings... it passed and the Senior Inspector commented on the neatness and completeness of the job...
I own several properties with Federal Pacific... had one zinsco... that property was sold... never ever had an issue with any of them.
I do agree that their is no room for shortcuts...
Glad to hear you have no issues with them. Of course it sounds as if you are keeping on top of them as well, as far as maintenance, etc. Many of these panels can survive for a long time if the owners were only as conscientious as you are being.
We see these panels inside and out here in our area. Many times the inside panels become damaged with leaking from overhead service drop mast issues, and other leakage points. I ran into one, a rehab job, that was so covered in texture and paint you could not see the connections on the buss bar clearly, and could not tell the color of the branch wiring insulation.
Glad to hear you have no issues with them. Of course it sounds as if you are keeping on top of them as well, as far as maintenance, etc. Many of these panels can survive for a long time if the owners were only as conscientious as you are being.
We see these panels inside and out here in our area. Many times the inside panels become damaged with leaking from overhead service drop mast issues, and other leakage points. I ran into one, a rehab job, that was so covered in texture and paint you could not see the connections on the buss bar clearly, and could not tell the color of the branch wiring insulation.
There are some disasters just waiting to happen...
A friend recently evicted a family for non-payment and damage... the utilities had been off for a while... at least gas and electric...
Someone had filled the water meter box with concrete so the water company had to send a construction crew to jack-hammer it out.
The inside wall where the power drop to the meter lay was opened and the conduit hacked open... 16 penny nails were driven through the cable to siphon power... lucky someone wasn't killed
I appreciate the advice so many willing share when it comes to safety...
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