Getting things in writing from contractors? (roofing, painting, price, pipes)

[movin'on]

I have been having a handyman do work on my house. So far, things were going great and both his work and rates were very reasonable.

However...I decided I wanted to take off all this ivy from the front of my house and to have it painted, in addition to removing some trees.

Initially the plan was for him to do things by himself and to hire a friend of his for one day to get the trees down. Now it's turned into the two of them being here "for at least two weeks." I didn't want anyone else here for more than a few days.

We agreed on a price for everything, but I'd swear he said all materials were included in the initial discussion. Now I am paying for materials beyond the labor, which is okay I guess, as it's only a few hundred dollars more.

However.....I am now feeling less than comfortable with the arrangement and one week has gone by. His helper told me yesterday he has a broken wrist (I saw no signs of swelling) and that he'd have to have it set in a splint and cast (don't they do that right away when you go to the Dr?). He also made the comment..."Not in June!" as that is when the lion's share of his income rolls in.

I started thinking about things like liability. I am sure neither are licensed or insured. Maybe I should have only agreed to a licensed and bonded painter to do the job.

At any rate, all I can think of to do is to have them each sign a contract, after the fact, holding me harmless from any injuries on the job and also require they agree to not file any liens against my property upon receipt of full payment. They may not sign, in which case I'm out a lot of money up front, but after the broken wrist comment I feel I need to protect myself.

Am I being overly paranoid here? Will they be offended to sign a contract and walk off the job? I probably should have gotten something in writing before they started, but better late than never? THanks.

[BobKovacs]

You're not being paranoid at all- if one of your unlicensed, uninsured contractors breaks his wrist (or worse) on your property, would you care to wager a guess as to who's responsible for the medical bills?

Of course, this poor, helpless "contractor" will be out of work for months while his wrist heals, losing thousands of dollars in income. He'll endure all kinds of pain and suffering I'm sure, and he'll probably need years of therapy to get over how he was "taken advantage of" by a ruthless, penny-pinching homeowner who used him to save a few dollars, while he was just trying to put food on the table. Guess who gets to pay for all of that too.....

Technically, if you're paying him by the hour and he's not licensed, the state could consider him to be your "employee" as opposed to being a "contractor", and then you'll even have the pleasure of paying all of the withholding taxes that he likely didn't pay, as well as the employer's portion of social security amd Medicare as well.

Bob

[movin'on]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

You're not being paranoid at all- if one of your unlicensed, uninsured contractors breaks his wrist (or worse) on your property, would you care to wager a guess as to who's responsible for the medical bills?

Of course, this poor, helpless "contractor" will be out of work for months while his wrist heals, losing thousands of dollars in income. He'll endure all kinds of pain and suffering I'm sure, and he'll probably need years of therapy to get over how he was "taken advantage of" by a ruthless, penny-pinching homeowner who used him to save a few dollars, while he was just trying to put food on the table. Guess who gets to pay for all of that too.....

Technically, if you're paying him by the hour and he's not licensed, the state could consider him to be your "employee" as opposed to being a "contractor", and then you'll even have the pleasure of paying all of the withholding taxes that he likely didn't pay, as well as the employer's portion of social security amd Medicare as well.

Bob

Well, thanks. I was going to wait until Monday p.m. after they at least got a bit more work done to have them sign what I've prepared, but after reading what you've written, looks like they had better sign stuff before they do anything else.

I am going to just tell them I'd meant to have the agreements signed earlier on, but then things came up. I certainly don't want to make it seem like I all of a sudden got the idea. I'll just tell them that anytime a project over X dollars is done, I put it in writing and I was just a slow poke.

Thanks!

[Cosmic]

In general never, never hire anybody who is really not in the construction / remodeling business and is not insured. You also never, never allow somebody to work without a signed contract. They should be writing the contract, not you. In there they must state they are insured and wave any claims for injury type liability. There is some standard boiler plate type verbage.

Depending on your state and local requirements, these clowns might be considered independent contractors. Most places painters do not have to be licensed but they must be insured and most bigger places they usually need what amounts to a business license from the city or town to work there. That also includes anybody claiming to be a handyman. They must also be able to prove they are set up as a business to pay taxes, etc.

Some places will jail these type clowns in a flash. Expecially if they are just dudes without any type of paper or registered in some manner as real business. Many places it is illegal to offer any type of remodeling / construction services without being insured or registered.

You may also be off the hook, because you could claim, he brought the helper into the job without your knowledge. Lot depends on your location. Some places it would be the clowns needing the lawyer. The laws in general prevent any dude with a truck running around signing up clients. Even things like lawn care. You can not just work under the table without the prior paperwork. At least you have to be registered with the town / city for those things that do not required a license. As part of that you must meet the minimum insurance type requirements. Even folks like street vendors in most bigger places are very controlled. Duh, need permit to have a yard sale. Places like NY, MA, FL, CA can be wicked if you are off the reservation.

Would try to get the dumb clowns to leave after you claim you are broke. Never deal with amateur clowns claiming to be in any business. Did they even have a business card??? Lot of places, lock these folks up quick. Don't know if they can win in court. Many places I doubt it.

I knew of a bunch of folks that claimed to be in the paving business. They got in a kicking contest with one of my neighbors in the old neighborhood in Boston. In short they cheated this old guy, he called the cops, they also had done other jobs on the street and had a bunch of complains filed in the past. It finally came down, the boss type dude got like 3 years in prison. They did not mess around if you were outside the rules. You did not need a license to be in the paving business and in most cases permits were not required but they better be within all the other rules.

[Twinkle Toes]

If you don't feel comfortable with these people being at your house and taking as much time as they are, just tell them not to come back and hire a reputable, licensed contractor.

[Scholar]

A couple of other things that we've learned about hiring contractors: check with the BBB for complaints and never give any money up front. Years ago, when we bought our first house, we had a guy who was going to put in a wall for us. He asked for part of the money up front, so he could buy supplies. Then, he kept asking for more up-front money for more supplies. When we said, "No!", he left the job unfinished.

Also, always ask for referrals. We had someone paint our house ( no money up front, written contract, bonded and insured), but we had problems keeping him on task as he always said he had so many other jobs that he was trying to get done at the same time. Also, he left a few things undone in places that , of course, we didn't notice until after we had our final walk around. (Next time we will check every hidden nook and cranny.) Soon after, our neighbor, who must have seen the trucks at our house, had the guy do work at his house. If the neighbor had only talked to us before hiring him, we could have given him some warning. By the time we noticed and talked to our neighbor, he already had a contract with him. Poor guy had work that should have taken less than a day stay undone for a month! When it came to having our roof done, we did not make the same mistake. Instead, we relied heavily on recommendations from people we trust, and we couldn't have been happier with our roofing experience!

[movin'on]

Oh no. Thanks for your replies. I did get them both to sign something I got on the Net which states I have no liability in the event of injury. I am a bit embarassed to say, but I've already given them $2500, per the agreement, thinking of course they would do a good job. At least I am holding out on the last $1000.

I have been home each morning to at least check on stuff while they are going about things. I am not pleased. Yesterday I was sick and didn't really look at things until this morning. I honestly don't know what they did in four hours. Good thing I'm not paying them by the hour. The one guy (who does trees and landscaping for a living) doesn't do good work. He'd put some stucco patch at the bottom of a wall and I had to go out and slice two inches off the bottom, as it was running into the dirt. I plan to go get more stucco patch this weekend and do it myself.

I'm trying to be nice so they don't get passive-aggressive on me and really screw things up. I've made comments about wanting things sanded and primed and yesterday none of that happened. I feel like I have to watch them.

I've dished out a lot of money (per the agreement) and plan to talk to the handyman guy Monday. I had the impression he planned to paint it himself, but this helper is doing things too. How can I make sure I get what I want done now? I'm really nervous about them painting, as I have a brick trim around the top of the house. I have visions of splotches of paint all over my brick. They did do a lot of work in terms of getting the ivy off the house and getting some trees taken care of, but I just don't have a good feeling about the rest.

They only work a max of 4 hours a day and it's even been less than that. The one helper did work 5 or 6 hours one day. They go to the bar at noon

Help! I'm a single woman, not working right now, who lives in a nice neighborhood and I'm getting the impression they think I have lots of money.

And one more thing. When they dug up some shrubs they hit one of the drip irrigation pipes. The helper guy mentioned I should turn the system off until they fixed it. Good and fine, but he sort of made a joke of it when I asked if they'd fix it and said..."oh yeah, you'll just pay for it." I probably should have done something at that point.

[Scholar]

My sympathies! We have soooo been there. We even bought pizza for the workers at lunch, so they would be happier and hopefully more hard-working. Things you could try: Have a male neighbor or friend talk to the worker with you (esp. as a witness). Make a show of taking before and after pictures. That way you have proof of the workmanship. Do not give the rest of the money to him until you are satisfied, and don't let him pressure or rush you. Perhaps the friend or neighbor will do final check with you, so you have an extra set of eyes. Walk around frequently and look for drips on the brick while they are working. Insist that the drips be fixed immediately, and don't believe they will go back later with some chemical to clean up the mess.

[movin'on]

Originally Posted by Scholar

My sympathies! We have soooo been there. We even bought pizza for the workers at lunch, so they would be happier and hopefully more hard-working. Things you could try: Have a male neighbor or friend talk to the worker with you (esp. as a witness). Make a show of taking before and after pictures. That way you have proof of the workmanship. Do not give the rest of the money to him until you are satisfied, and don't let him pressure or rush you. Perhaps the friend or neighbor will do final check with you, so you have an extra set of eyes. Walk around frequently and look for drips on the brick while they are working. Insist that the drips be fixed immediately, and don't believe they will go back later with some chemical to clean up the mess.

Did the pizza work? I wonder about those things. Sometimes I think if one is too nice it can backfire, least in my case.

Good idea on the before and after pics. I like that. The witness thing is good too, but I don't have anyone available to do that. I won't give him anymore money, even when he tries to tell me it's taking longer than expected and he has to pay the worker. Dummy me! I have him $500 up front (as he said he had to recruit some strangers and had to show them something in order to get them to work) and then $1000 six days later, and this was after four days work for the two of them, and a maximum of 35 hours between the two of them. I purchased all the materials too. I guess I was paying him/them for work in advance. Sigh.

I wonder if I should even mention it again that I'm not paying him until the work is done. It says so right there in the agreement, but I didn't give him a copy, although I did verbally mention it. I'll give him the copy tomorrow and then I guess he can always come back if he's not happy. But I am not handing over one more dime until it's done.

I will insist that any drips be cleaned immediately and I'm going to make it clear I don't want the helper guy painting anywhere around the brick. Thanks for your input.

[sunsprit]

You're in a tough situation right now.

You cannot come back to these people after the fact and have them individually sign away their "worker's" rights, such as workmen's comp or other protections.

You would do best to have these people leave as quickly as possible from your premises, even if it means a modest loss to you at this time.

Unless the original fellow was, in fact, a legitimate contractor, he's going to be viewed as your employee. You'll find that you most likely qualify as his employer by several means testing. And, as pointed out above, you're responsible for FED/state/local witholding taxes, unemployment insurance, workmen's comp, etc. One thing especially working against you is that you've provided his "contract" instead of him bringing his own to you.

If you need casual labor in the future, get it from Labor Ready or other qualified labor supplier. If you need a contracted job, get it from a thoroughly checked out by you contractor.

All it takes is one bad claim against you and you'll be feeling the financial pain for a long time.