Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Its not my fault you didn't see Midtown or the new developments in the Loop when you were here
But I did see those areas and the new development. That is where I spend most of my time when I am there. I am not saying that those areas and the surrounding development are not impressive, I am just saying that they way that Houston is developing is not like the way that Dallas is developing. Dallas is densifying in all of these areas that are growing into one big dense, urban area, whereas Houston is developing in pockets that are very disconnected which makes it appear less urban and less people friendly.
But I did see those areas and the new development. That is where I spend most of my time when I am there. I am not saying that those areas and the surrounding development are not impressive, I am just saying that they way that Houston is developing is not like the way that Dallas is developing. Dallas is densifying in all of these areas that are growing into one big dense, urban area, whereas Houston is developing in pockets that are very disconnected which makes it appear less urban and less people friendly.
The same thing can be said about Houston all of the new mid-rise apartments that are going up in midtown, montrose, the medical center, greenway, and uptown area are all bridging the gaps between these areas. They are all densyfying. It may seem that these areas are disconnected because they are all spread out whereas all the Dallas areas are right next to each other. As more of these mid rise and high rise buildings go up all of these areas will grow into one large dense, urban area. It is just going to take more buildings to go up in Houston then Dallas. I don't think it will take very long for his to happen the way that these mid rise building are popping up seems like there is a new one announced every week.
The same thing can be said about Houston all of the new mid-rise apartments that are going up in midtown, montrose, the medical center, greenway, and uptown area are all bridging the gaps between these areas. They are all densyfying. It may seem that these areas are disconnected because they are all spread out whereas all the Dallas areas are right next to each other. As more of these mid rise and high rise buildings go up all of these areas will grow into one large dense, urban area. It is just going to take more buildings to go up in Houston then Dallas. I don't think it will take very long for his to happen the way that these mid rise building are popping up seems like there is a new one announced every week.
Exactly, which is what jbarn isnt thinking about. Houston is a larger city with a larger urban core, so it will take longer to fill in. Even then, areas around Downtown, like Morton, East Downtown, etc., are all becoming more dense and urban neighborhoods. Downtown has added new parks, residential towers and conversions, hotels, etc., so Downtown is befoming better itself. The light rail being put in will connect these areas around the Inner Loop anyway.
On my way to work everyday passing by the MMP just east of 59, i see the light rail construction going on and the new dynamo stadium next to the already existing lofts and older buildings with potential for conversion. It really looks like they're trying to build a mini city out that way. It looks very exciting,
But the skeptical side of me makes me question some of the potential in this area because:
1. It's approaching close to eastside Houston, not too far from the high concentration of the Factories, outlets, and industrial wasteland.
2, There's not a whole lot of access to other amentites like say how Midtown is not too far from Museums, Medical Center, or Montrose, or even Rice. I know Uof H isn't very far away, but we don't depend on a college to always be bustling with activity unless there's a game or something. If we did, we'd be Austin, and we're not Austin. LOL
I realize i may be a little ignorant on this, but is this Dynamo/light rail really expected to spur more development? I hope it can do more than what i've seen. The Main Street line between Pierce elevated and the Museum District is still a depressing drive. Old boarded up storefronts, rift raft from the Greyhound station, and the proximity to homeless shelters still plagues this area from growth. The light rail has been in place there for almost 10 years and nothing new has occupied those storefronts?
All in all, I just want to see Houston start growing more vertical. I want to see more apartments over storefronts, more patio bars all in a nestled area, kind of like how Uptown Dallas has done. It's crazy how many towers in UT Dallas has popped up and it really has a nice, densley packed urban skyline on the other side of Woodall Rogers. Now the new deck park will bridge the gap and cause those two areas to merge. The average visitor will soon not be able to tell the difference.
As i said in my previous post, i realize that all the construction DT/UT Dallas is doing is just now really catching up to Houston, but some of Houston's looks dated and a tad bit seedy.
Sorry for the long rant, I just want to see my town step up its game and not let itself get passed up, especially by little D.
stoneclaw/C2H (ComingtoHouston)
Last edited by stoneclaw; 04-03-2012 at 11:48 PM..
On my way to work everyday passing by the MMP everyday just east of 59, i see the light rail construction going on and the new Dynamo stadium next to the already existing lofts and older buildings with potential for conversion. It really looks like they're trying to build a mini city out that way. It looks very exciting,
But the skeptical side of me makes me question some of the potential in this area because:
1. It's approaching close to eastside Houston, not too far from the high concentration of the Factories, outlets, and industrial wasteland.
2, There's not a whole lot of access to other amentites like say how Midtown is not too far from Museums, Medical Center, or Montrose, or even Rice. I know Uof H isn't very far away, but we don't depend on a college to always be bustling with activity unless there's a game or something. If we did, we'd be Austin, and we're not Austin. LOL
I realize i may be a little ignorant on this, but is this Dynamo/light rail really expected to spur more development? I hope it can do more than what i've seen. The Main Street line between Pierce elevated and the Museum District is still a depressing drive. Old boarded up storefronts, rift raft from the Greyhound station, and the proximity to homeless shelters still plagues this area from growth. The light rail has been in place there for almost 10 years and nothing new has occupied those storefronts?
All in all, I just want to see Houston start growing more vertical. I want to see more apartments over storefronts, more patio bars all in a nestled area, kind of like how Uptown Dallas has done. It's crazy how many towers in UT Dallas has popped up and it really has a nice, densley packed urban skyline on the other side of Woodall Rogers. Now the new deck park will bridge the gap and cause those two areas to merge. The average visitor will soon not be able to tell the difference.
As i said in my previous post, i realize that all the construction DT/UT Dallas is doing is just now really catching up to Houston, but some of Houston's looks dated and a tad bit seedy.
Sorry for the long rant, I just want to see my town step up its game and not let itself get passed up, especially by little D.
stoneclaw/C2H (ComingtoHouston)
You are very correct. Trust me, even if there was something nice near the Greyhound station in Houston it wouldn't be worth visitng. It is the worst place on the planet. Every freaking drifter and criminal on the run in the country somehow and someway ends up there.
Exactly, which is what jbarn isnt thinking about. Houston is a larger city with a larger urban core, so it will take longer to fill in. Even then, areas around Downtown, like Morton, East Downtown, etc., are all becoming more dense and urban neighborhoods. Downtown has added new parks, residential towers and conversions, hotels, etc., so Downtown is befoming better itself. The light rail being put in will connect these areas around the Inner Loop anyway.
Ok but he's right in a sense. Dallas is developing a more cohesive and consistent urban area. Houston's is urban over here and over there. Houston has more potential IMO. But they aren't connected. Dallas is more connected which will make Dallas urban development more aesthetically pleasing. It is what it is right now. Houston has made great strides. Now they need to work on connecting them.
1. It's approaching close to eastside Houston, not too far from the high concentration of the Factories, outlets, and industrial wasteland.
EADO is close to warehouses, most of the factories are still countries away.
Quote:
2, There's not a whole lot of access to other amentites like say how Midtown is not too far from Museums, Medical Center, or Montrose, or even Rice. I know Uof H isn't very far away, but we don't depend on a college to always be bustling with activity unless there's a game or something. If we did, we'd be Austin, and we're not Austin. LOL
Houstonians are poor judges of distance and travel. Have mad respect for you, but seat your ass down and think.
1. EADO and The SE are actually closer to TMC, the Museum district, Rice etc than Midtown. I am talking about the Midtown where the bulk of people live not the huge swarths of empty lots that is near Westheimer.
Eado and The SE are also closer to These areas than the Heights and that didn't stop people from moving there.
2. Secondly. You can seat your happy ass on a rail and go from Eado or the SE to Rice, TMC, Museum district etc or hop on 59/ 288 and get there in 5 minutes. There is no rail in midtown (where people live) No rail in the Heights.
Quote:
I realize i may be a little ignorant on this, but is this Dynamo/light rail really expected to spur more development? I hope it can do more than what i've seen. The Main Street line between Pierce elevated and the Museum District is still a depressing drive. Old boarded up storefronts, rift raft from the Greyhound station, and the proximity to homeless shelters still plagues this area from growth.
You are oversimplifying the market. Between Pierce and Wheeler it was a range of mishaps that are to be blamed for slow growth.
1. When serious talk of the rail began in the 1990's speculators bought up every inch of land possible driving up the cost of land in the area. Heard that the land went from under $50 bucks a foot to over $150 or something like that. So point one is that the land is already wickedly priced
2. Building costs have gone threw the roof. Heard that two floors or under cost about $17 bucks per whatever measure they used. Under 5 floors cost not much more, but hirises coast about $117 per whatever. So point two is that buying expensive land to build a midget building doesn't make much sense to a lot of people
3. Point three is related to two. In order to save half the cost of building tall the developers would have to either reserve a certain area of the developable land to use as surface parking lots or seek a variance from the city to build less parking space than required by city codes. The taller you go the more land you need for surface parking, and the figure was something like 75% for parking for the buildings over 5 storys. That brings us back to the price of land. NO one wants to pay that amount of money to reserve 75% of it as surface lots. As for the variances, the city has granted some and denied most. City codes require that all new residences provide TWO parking spots for each unit. You can see that if you build a 300 unit tower you are gonna have to build a heck of a lot of parking. Most cities with condo/ hirise booms have reduced the parking ratio from 2 to 1 or 1.5. Even Dallas is getting with the program. So point three developers can make towers cost effective if they don't have to meet the exorbitant parking requirements, but the city is reluctant to grant variances. That is why all you see in Midtown are townhomes or apartments under 6 stories.
there are more reasons but these are the main ones. I would like to point to the areas south of TMC though as a better example of development without all the speculating. The prices there was not driven up like that in midtown, and look at all the new development that has gone on there. Lots of new residential units just a few blocks from the rail. Binz too is another good example.
The Calais is an example of a complex in Midtown that bucked the trend, but they go the ball rolling before the rail was completed and that may have saved them a lot. They are looking to expand to that empty lot on Westheimer between Smith and Louisiana but they are fighting the City trying to get a variance for guess what- PARKING
Is EADO gonna be the same? Dunno, we will have to see. There are things that are pointing to the opposite though
1. Like Midtown the land was gobbled up ages ago, but unlike midtown the prices are not yet to the roof.
2. New residences have been going up before the rail even started building, so we didn't have the whole I am gonna seat on it till it gets super pricey before I sell it kinda deal.
3. There are many existing structures that can be remodeled into residential units instead of starting fresh. These remodels are more likely to skirt around the parking rule because they are existing structures rather than new builds.
4. The area is far less popular than midtown because it is not in the middle of 4 main job centers. Because it is less popular the price hikes would rise more slowly than midtown and thus allowing development projects to not not get over priced too quickly.
5. TODs get cheaper to build the more areas there are two build them. There was just that area between DT and TMC and TMC to Fannin south to begin with. Once we go from 5 miles available, to 10 to 15 and then to 30, there will come a point there are ample areas that were not gobbled up to build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpimus
You are very correct. Trust me, even if there was something nice near the Greyhound station in Houston it wouldn't be worth visitng. It is the worst place on the planet. Every freaking drifter and criminal on the run in the country somehow and someway ends up there.
It is not the Greyhound station that is the problem. I dunno why people are so narrow focused. Not you, but people in general always complain about the station. It is not the Station that is the problem. There are tons of churches and homeless shelters in that area that feed and board these people that is why they are in that area. People drop off food everyday under the Pierce Elevated, and like Pigeons they flock to that area. There was talk of moving the station to the Intermodal Station that was in the works just north of Downtown, but that won't solve the problem. The homeless will still be looking for a handout in Midtown because that is where they get fed.
Ok but he's right in a sense. Dallas is developing a more cohesive and consistent urban area. Houston's is urban over here and over there. Houston has more potential IMO. But they aren't connected. Dallas is more connected which will make Dallas urban development more aesthetically pleasing. It is what it is right now. Houston has made great strides. Now they need to work on connecting them.
Dallas is NOT as connected as you guys make it seem. I look at the two on Google maps and Houstons Development run for miles longer.
There are More areas in Dallas that are closer, but they are not connected. The The Binz to Almeda to Lower Midtown, to Montrose to Allen Parkway, To Washington Ave to the Heights is larger than the Dallas areas.
Look at the State Thomas area for example. Pull it up on Google maps and zoom out to see how quickly it fades. Compare it to the Webster area near Freedmen's town. Look how longer the higher density developments run.
Dallas is NOT as connected as you guys make it seem. I look at the two on Google maps and Houstons Development run for miles longer.
There are More areas in Dallas that are closer, but they are not connected. The The Binz to Almeda to Lower Midtown, to Montrose to Allen Parkway, To Washington Ave to the Heights is larger than the Dallas areas.
Look at the State Thomas area for example. Pull it up on Google maps and zoom out to see how quickly it fades. Compare it to the Webster area near Freedmen's town. Look how longer the higher density developments run.
You talk about Houston being larger this and longer that, than Dallas, but being larger and longer don't really matter. Look at the densest cities, such as Boston, Seattle, San Francisco, Philadelphia. Those cities are much, much smaller than Houston, but they are far denser and more urban, so they actually appear to be larger. So it is not the largeness that matters, it is the way with which the cities are developed and connected that make the cities appear larger and more urban. And you mention how small State Thomas is, but you fail to mention that although State Thomas is not that large, it is still connected to Uptown, Turtle Creek, Oak Lawn, the Design District, Victory, the West End, Downtown, etc...areas that are filling in rapidly, and you can walk from one area to the next. Granted, you might have to go under a freeway overpass, as is the case with the Design District, but you can still walk nonetheless, within a reasonable amount of time. You cannot do that in Houston, unless of course, you have very, very strong legs, and a lot of time on your hands. Houston may have some large areas that are becoming more dense, but it does not have many, and the larger the area, the more space there is to be developed, so being large is not necessarily a good thing.
lol, you are not comparing Dallas to Boston and SF are you???
and just like these areas are growing into each other in Dallas they are doing the same in Houston.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
