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Rail results in more options instead of less. The rail stop is supposed to be a hub for the buses and not the only option available. The Rail will result in more buses as the rails must be fed by buses.
I'm always amazed that people have such a hard time understanding that.
Adding rail slowly is the best option for a city that is spread out like Houston. I think people want rail because it looks cool, but don't understand the huge cost. It's not a great investment and it doesn't have the flexibility that a great bus system would have. We should improve that first and foremost. Even in Dallas ridership of their lightrail is really low on a per mile basis. And it hasn't done much at all to improve traffic. So investing billions just to say we have rail doesn't seem that smart.
I normally agree with you Mikey, but disagree with you on Commuter rail. Urbanization won't be hurt by commuter rail. Free access to highways kill urban development.
Commuter rail is not as efficient as you think in terms of promoting Suburbia. Commuter rail has very few stops (usually one per burb. When I was last in London I lived with my Cousin whose house was in a burb at the very last stop on a commuter line.
It took over an hour to dump us in the O. From there the O or the buses could take us anywhere in central London. Prices for a day pass varied by where you were going. If you didn't venture outside the central core the day pass was $6 if you took the commuter lines it was $17 (about 30 american dollars just for the day).
Driving in is no better. There is a tax for driving in the core and then parking cost hundreds of dollars per month. So although it is more expensive to live around London rather than further out, the hassle and time spent commuting makes living closer to town very attractive.
For Houston I would definitely build commuter rails following every highway. Next I would tax the crap out of surface parking lots. Then I would toll all highways and stagger the toll prices. I think service and business vehicles should pay little to no tolls. trucks would have to pay a little more and then HOV,s then finally singly occupied cars. heck from the Woodlands to Houston I would charge $8 in tolls to get to downtown for a car with one person.
I would use the money earned from these tolls to build a comprehensive rail system in the loop, uptown and rails to business districts and airports.
To counter a rapid rise in home prices, I would reduce the parking requirements for hirises in the loop to 0. I would give rebates to multifamily developments.
Finally, I would pressure the people with vast swarths of land in areas like midtown with prime land just sitting there waiting for appreciation. Either they make use of it or they sell it.
I can see some of your points of view regarding commuter rail. Oh and seeing people hold onto surface parking lots in downtown Houston when SOMETHING could be built on it drives me crazy! When you say "tax the crap out of surface parking lots", which ones are you talking about? The ones at the rail station or the ones inside the city (like in downtown)? Would you discount parking garages so that people are not turned off by expensive parking?
See, here is what I am trying to figure out. When Dallas unleashed their commuter rail lines, population inside the city became stagnant. Why? If commuter rail didn't cause this, then what did? Dallas' economy is excellent and has been.
Why is the city of Chicago's population falling at an average rate of 101,000 per census, but the metro area is gaining population?
See, I think before Houston jumps the gun with commuter rail (which it really can't at this point being there is no unified area rail district with the capability to actually impliment commuter rail right now) I think there needs to be some extensive studies done to make sure the urban core doesn't dwendle and suburban sprawl does not excelerate. Also, we need to be sure that urban development continues quickly and the inner loop property values don't decrease.
I am extremely skeptical about commuter rail mainly because I don't want what's happened in Dallas to happen here in Houston. To me that would be quite devastating to our inner core. When METRO's light rail is up and running it will definitely help ease traffic flow inside the city. I will be able to use it to and from work =) But at least it is contained to just the city of Houston and almost entirely inside the loop.
I can see some of your points of view regarding commuter rail. Oh and seeing people hold onto surface parking lots in downtown Houston when SOMETHING could be built on it drives me crazy! When you say "tax the crap out of surface parking lots", which ones are you talking about? The ones at the rail station or the ones inside the city (like in downtown)? Would you discount parking garages so that people are not turned off by expensive parking?
See, here is what I am trying to figure out. When Dallas unleashed their commuter rail lines, population inside the city became stagnant. Why? If commuter rail didn't cause this, then what did? Dallas' economy is excellent and has been.
Why is the city of Chicago's population falling at an average rate of 101,000 per census, but the metro area is gaining population?
See, I think before Houston jumps the gun with commuter rail (which it really can't at this point being there is no unified area rail district with the capability to actually impliment commuter rail right now) I think there needs to be some extensive studies done to make sure the urban core doesn't dwendle and suburban sprawl does not excelerate. Also, we need to be sure that urban development continues quickly and the inner loop property values don't decrease.
I am extremely skeptical about commuter rail mainly because I don't want what's happened in Dallas to happen here in Houston. To me that would be quite devastating to our inner core. When METRO's light rail is up and running it will definitely help ease traffic flow inside the city. I will be able to use it to and from work =) But at least it is contained to just the city of Houston and almost entirely inside the loop.
So your basic point is that you live inside the loop and want everything very convenient for you but people who choose to live outside of the loop for whatever reason shouldn't have the same access to mass transit and convenience? If commuter rail ever did develop I think it would just give people more options in choosing where they live and still have an easy commute to work. Really don't see how this is a bad thing. However, I also don't think Houston is very urban now nor will it ever be. Pretty much you have many in town suburbs that have been annexed to the city (Heights, West U. Bellaire, etc.) and the fact that Houston is generally suburban in nature isn't a bad thing, if I wanted to live in an urban area I would have stayed in San Francisco or New York City. I moved back to Houston because it was exactly the type of city my wife and I wanted for this stage of our life.
However, I'm not very optimistic that Houston will ever have a great mass transit system for numerous reasons (cost, the way Houston is laid out, love our cars, etc.) but I certainly wish it did.
Adding rail slowly is the best option for a city that is spread out like Houston. I think people want rail because it looks cool, but don't understand the huge cost. It's not a great investment and it doesn't have the flexibility that a great bus system would have. We should improve that first and foremost. Even in Dallas ridership of their lightrail is really low on a per mile basis. And it hasn't done much at all to improve traffic. So investing billions just to say we have rail doesn't seem that smart.
Expensive,
I'm sure that assumption that count for the money saved for not having to add extra lanes to all the highways.
You think ridership is going to be too low?
I guarantee that if we ever build one between the airports, downtown and Galveston, the ridership is going to be extremely high.
So your basic point is that you live inside the loop and want everything very convenient for you but people who choose to live outside of the loop for whatever reason shouldn't have the same access to mass transit and convenience? If commuter rail ever did develop I think it would just give people more options in choosing where they live and still have an easy commute to work. Really don't see how this is a bad thing. However, I also don't think Houston is very urban now nor will it ever be. Pretty much you have many in town suburbs that have been annexed to the city (Heights, West U. Bellaire, etc.) and the fact that Houston is generally suburban in nature isn't a bad thing, if I wanted to live in an urban area I would have stayed in San Francisco or New York City. I moved back to Houston because it was exactly the type of city my wife and I wanted for this stage of our life.
However, I'm not very optimistic that Houston will ever have a great mass transit system for numerous reasons (cost, the way Houston is laid out, love our cars, etc.) but I certainly wish it did.
West University Place and Bellaire are incorporated cities, not a part of the city of Houston (the city of Houston grew completely around them). As of now and most likely well into the 2040's rail in Houston will be contained to just the central areas of the city of Houston. The unincorporated areas will not have bus service nor rail service because their taxes do not pay for Houston's transit system (METRO). So if you live in an area that doesn't help pay for METRO, you will never receive bus or rail service, unless a metropolitan-wide transit authority is created that covers the entire Houston area, not just the city of Houston and surrounding participating suburbs.
Now as far as people living 30+ miles away from the city, if you need access into the city frequently, then why are you living so far from the city center in the first place? I used to live 28 miles from downtown, but I got sick and tired of the drive Monday-Friday so I moved... 4 miles from downtown. Yes, it is a little more expensive to live inside the city, but I value my sanity way more than cheaper living out in the suburbs. Also, people who live out in the boondocks that desperately want commuter rail service, be advised, your taxes will increase for this service if it ever happens. Nothing is for free let me fully assure you of that.
Houston is in fact becoming increasingly urbanized. I am not sure how long you have lived in Houston, but the areas between downtown and uptown (including uptown) have become more and more dense. The choice of building mid-rises and high-rises instead of traditional suburban apartments is quickly increasing in the inner loop. If you haven't checked the Houston Business Journal lately, just in the uptown area there are currently 3 residental high-rises under construction and 11 mid-rises in construction or planned for construction soon. This is just in uptown and doesn't include the upper kirby, greenway plaza, neartown and midtown areas which have seen extensive urbanization in the past 15 years. I remember back 15 years ago when there wasn't anything urban about these areas execpt for downtown.
I definitely agree that Houston will never have the transit systems that most large cities have. Houston's love affair with cars is a major reason, but the fact that people in unincorporated areas most likely will not buy into the idea of having their taxes raised to support mass transit is going to be a huge hurdle. People's need to live 30+ miles from downtown is another one (further out rail lines have to be built the more expensive they become). Houston doesn't grow in just one principal direction like Dallas or Austin which grow mainly northward. Houston's major growth is towards west, southwest, northwest, north and southeast.
I'm moving to the suburbs because of things that we would like to do on a day to day basis our more focused out there for my wife and baby and I don't mind driving 40 minutes or so to the office. Some might think that is too far but doesn't bother me a bit (and I don't go to the office at normal times). Could afford a plenty nice house in the city but just choose not too (and anyways if a city lifestyle is what I wanted I would have just stayed in NYC). Also, other than about a 5 years stretch recently I've lived in Houston all of my life including out in the suburbs and inside the loop (and I love living in Houston nothing I say is knocking the town in anyway).
People move to the suburbs for a lot of different reasons and not just cost. Commuter rail just opens up more possibilities to people looking for different options. My wife and I want to live in a community with a lot of young children, a church that we grew up with and love and be near our family. That is in the suburb we are moving to and not in Houston. Not everybody wants to live 4 miles from their office in downtown for whatever reason. I would also happily pay taxes to support commuter rail. I was taxed like crazy living in NYC and had no problem with it because of the services that were provided. I'll admit I am definitely in the minority here (and a reason why commuter rail will not be going to the suburbs in a dramatic fashion anytime soon).
And I'll give you that Houston is developing more urban structures but just don't think Houston can ever be that "urban" because it is simply not a very pedestrian friendly place. Part of being urban to me is being able to walk places, etc. And there are a lot of things that prevent Houston from really becoming pedestrian friendly. Mainly the way the city is structured. Also, simply the beauty and architecture of the city is just too hodge podge. I walked everywhere in both San Francisco and NYC because it was really interesting to walk around, look at the sites, walk through parks, different people, much more densely populated, the weather made it easy to do, etc. Right when we moved back to Houston and started living in the Heights I just don't have the motivation to walk to a grocery store when its a hundred degrees and I'm passing single family dwellings, tire shops and homeless people constantly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyAusmus
West University Place and Bellaire are incorporated cities, not a part of the city of Houston (the city of Houston grew completely around them). As of now and most likely well into the 2040's rail in Houston will be contained to just the central areas of the city of Houston. The unincorporated areas will not have bus service nor rail service because their taxes do not pay for Houston's transit system (METRO). So if you live in an area that doesn't help pay for METRO, you will never receive bus or rail service, unless a metropolitan-wide transit authority is created that covers the entire Houston area, not just the city of Houston and surrounding participating suburbs.
Now as far as people living 30+ miles away from the city, if you need access into the city frequently, then why are you living so far from the city center in the first place? I used to live 28 miles from downtown, but I got sick and tired of the drive Monday-Friday so I moved... 4 miles from downtown. Yes, it is a little more expensive to live inside the city, but I value my sanity way more than cheaper living out in the suburbs. Also, people who live out in the boondocks that desperately want commuter rail service, be advised, your taxes will increase for this service if it ever happens. Nothing is for free let me fully assure you of that.
Houston is in fact becoming increasingly urbanized. I am not sure how long you have lived in Houston, but the areas between downtown and uptown (including uptown) have become more and more dense. The choice of building mid-rises and high-rises instead of traditional suburban apartments is quickly increasing in the inner loop. If you haven't checked the Houston Business Journal lately, just in the uptown area there are currently 3 residental high-rises under construction and 11 mid-rises in construction or planned for construction soon. This is just in uptown and doesn't include the upper kirby, greenway plaza, neartown and midtown areas which have seen extensive urbanization in the past 15 years. I remember back 15 years ago when there wasn't anything urban about these areas execpt for downtown.
I definitely agree that Houston will never have the transit systems that most large cities have. Houston's love affair with cars is a major reason, but the fact that people in unincorporated areas most likely will not buy into the idea of having their taxes raised to support mass transit is going to be a huge hurdle. People's need to live 30+ miles from downtown is another one (further out rail lines have to be built the more expensive they become). Houston doesn't grow in just one principal direction like Dallas or Austin which grow mainly northward. Houston's major growth is towards west, southwest, northwest, north and southeast.
I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't care one way or the other. But if you're going to build a rail, build a elevated monorail and not a light rail(like we have) that is susceptible to crashing into cars and flooding. Just saying.
Only folks driving to the suburbs sit in traffic. Off the freeways, there isn't that much traffic.
+1. I usullay take the bus to work, but when I do drive in I take the back streets. I never sit in traffic.
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