New Windows for an old house

[astrohip]

Originally Posted by HookTheBrotherUp

Vinyl is cheaper, price and quality. Sure, they look good, but after a couple of years, they will be wavy and sag, depending on the size. The only straight thing will be the glass. They will also become brittle over time. Relatively speaking, they are still new and have not withstood the test of time... they won't.

Wrong. Very wrong. Vinyl costs more than aluminum. By about 20-25%. It is far more efficient (doesn't transmit heat/cold like alum does), and lasts longer. It does NOT sag or get wavy. Some of the most expensive windows Pella or Anderson sell are vinyl clad wood. Why? Because the vinyl lasts forever, and keeps the wood from rotting.

Builders don't use vinyl because it's cheaper, they use it because it's better. Don't believe me? Check out who uses alum still. It's the starter homes. Would they use it if it costs more?

Here's what you need in this part of the country:

1) Vinyl. Alum is no good, and wood is way overpriced and not worth it. And most wood windows are now sold vinyl-wrapped, so skip the wood and just buy vinyl
2) Insulated low-e glass. Also known as double glass. You don't need argon or anything fancy, as that's overkill for this climate. If it was zero degrees, argon filled is great. But when it barely freezes, argon is a waste of money.
3) No need for thermal break. Same reason as argon, it's a waste for this climate.

Most of the more expensive windows sold in this country are designed for cold climates. So they argon the glass, or thermalbreak the frame. And that makes a difference when you have 30-60-90 days of below freezing temperatures. But in this part of the country, we are more concerned with heat, not cold. So our windows use low-e, or SuperKool low-e. That is a glass that keeps the heat from the sun out of your house. And it works well (it's actually required by code for new homes).

Bottom line: Get a vinyl window with low-e insulated glass. That's all you need.

Where to go? I would use a company that sells to builders. They will have lower prices (wholesale level) than a Home Depot or Window World. They will sell you the windows (range $150-$250/each), and hook you up with someone to install them (a subcontractor). Expect to pay another $100-$150 to install. Even at $300-$400/window, it's less expensive than what you've been quoted.

Call "Gulf & Basco" or "Meritech" or "Builders FirstSource". Those are the big suppliers in town.

[horn892002]

Originally Posted by astrohip

Wrong. Very wrong. Vinyl costs more than aluminum. By about 20-25%. It is far more efficient (doesn't transmit heat/cold like alum does), and lasts longer. It does NOT sag or get wavy. Some of the most expensive windows Pella or Anderson sell are vinyl clad wood. Why? Because the vinyl lasts forever, and keeps the wood from rotting.

Builders don't use vinyl because it's cheaper, they use it because it's better. Don't believe me? Check out who uses alum still. It's the starter homes. Would they use it if it costs more?

Here's what you need in this part of the country:

1) Vinyl. Alum is no good, and wood is way overpriced and not worth it. And most wood windows are now sold vinyl-wrapped, so skip the wood and just buy vinyl
2) Insulated low-e glass. Also known as double glass. You don't need argon or anything fancy, as that's overkill for this climate. If it was zero degrees, argon filled is great. But when it barely freezes, argon is a waste of money.
3) No need for thermal break. Same reason as argon, it's a waste for this climate.

Most of the more expensive windows sold in this country are designed for cold climates. So they argon the glass, or thermalbreak the frame. And that makes a difference when you have 30-60-90 days of below freezing temperatures. But in this part of the country, we are more concerned with heat, not cold. So our windows use low-e, or SuperKool low-e. That is a glass that keeps the heat from the sun out of your house. And it works well (it's actually required by code for new homes).

Bottom line: Get a vinyl window with low-e insulated glass. That's all you need.

Where to go? I would use a company that sells to builders. They will have lower prices (wholesale level) than a Home Depot or Window World. They will sell you the windows (range $150-$250/each), and hook you up with someone to install them (a subcontractor). Expect to pay another $100-$150 to install. Even at $300-$400/window, it's less expensive than what you've been quoted.

Call "Gulf & Basco" or "Meritech" or "Builders FirstSource". Those are the big suppliers in town.

Right on. I couldn't explain any better.

[HookTheBrotherUp]

Vinyl windows look good, initially. If you paint them, the paint will wear off, scratch off, etc. and painting over it will expose the indentation of the previous layer. You cannot strip them with mechanical, or chemical means, you basically are stuck with the color you choose. Over the years, less than 20, they will dry rot and become brittle and will become damaged. Seams will separate, mitered corners will split, etc. Vinyl is the new aluminum as far as windows go.

Vinyl windows were not created with the goal of making a better window, they were created to make them less expensive to the manufacturer, not the home owner, because vinyl is cheaper than aluminum. What the manufacturers charge is another matter. It's like when a cereal vendor creates a new fancy package, but the contents are actually less than before... they don't lower the price to reflect it, in fact, probably raise it.

I work for an oil/gas/chemical company who is probably the top producer of vinyl chloride, we produce it by the millions of tons, and trust me, it is cheap as far as cost goes. Being an oil based product, it will dry rot over time. It starts to decompose at about 130-140 degrees, which can be attained in Houston on some days (surface, not ambient). Over time it will become brittle, especially when exposed to elements, even inside the home.

Vinyl windows from the box stores are disposable, many are replaced even as short as 5 years. We don't open the windows in Houston much, if it all, so there is a good chance that if you install them, they will never move, so that helps.

How many people read their warranties for their windows? Not much I'd say. Read the fine print, if you have the warranty. You will see that the manufacturers are protecting themselves, not you. Most probably, the glass has even less of a warranty and the vinyl window manufacturer will not cover the glass, so what will you do with a window that is broken? Replace it.

Most people don't pay attention to architectural details, so most will not be bothered by them, but to one who like historical homes, they are hideous. They just look cheap as the material they are made from.

If you don't plan in staying in your home for decades, then you probably won't be bothered by them. If you have an historic home, you'll ruin the look and decrease the value. There are wood windows in Houston that are over 175 years old. Like anything, windows require maintenance, even the cheap ones, but people just don't know, or care to perform the maintenance.

Better windows cost money, just like anything else. It is like buying a new Porche, and going to Wal-Mart for tire replacements when the time comes. But then again, anything goes on a contemporary style house I guess.

But back to the original reason for the post, replacing existing windows with expensive windows is not a wise idea if you want to save money. If you are serious about saving money, don't pay 30K for the new windows, you will never realize the supposed savings. The temperature extremes are not that great in Houston, double pane windows will keep out sound better, but as far as E rating, you can achieve that with window film they sell at the box stores.

[astrohip]

Originally Posted by HookTheBrotherUp

Vinyl windows look good, initially. If you paint them, the paint will wear off, scratch off, etc. and painting over it will expose the indentation of the previous layer. You cannot strip them with mechanical, or chemical means, you basically are stuck with the color you choose. Over the years, less than 20, they will dry rot and become brittle and will become damaged. Seams will separate, mitered corners will split, etc. Vinyl is the new aluminum as far as windows go.

Vinyl windows were not created with the goal of making a better window, they were created to make them less expensive to the manufacturer, not the home owner, because vinyl is cheaper than aluminum. What the manufacturers charge is another matter. It's like when a cereal vendor creates a new fancy package, but the contents are actually less than before... they don't lower the price to reflect it, in fact, probably raise it.

I am going to keep rebutting what you post, because you are wrong. People may read your post and think it's fact, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

1) Vinyl windows are not made to be painted. That's why they come in colors. Every manuf tells you NOT to paint them. It voids the warranty when you paint them. So when you spend a paragraph telling us how painting them will not work, well... duh!

2) Vinyl windows have been out for more than 20 years. They are still in service. They aren't rotting or splitting. Why would Anderson and Pella, two of the largest and most reputable window manuf in this country, sell vinyl windows with a lifetime warranty if they were not durable?

3) They cost more to make. They are NOT cheaper than alum. The window business is VERY competitive in this country. If they cost less to make, someone (Champion before they went bust, BFS, General) would sell them for less. This is not marketing to teens, this is selling to builders, the most bottom-line oriented people around. It's a mature market, which means marketing is mostly non-existent, and production costs rule.

You can believe what you want. I have decades of experience (buying, selling, manuf) in this industry. I know what I'm talking about. You don't.

[jasonamd]

Originally Posted by HookTheBrotherUp

Vinyl windows look good, initially. If you paint them, the paint will wear off, scratch off, etc. and painting over it will expose the indentation of the previous layer. You cannot strip them with mechanical, or chemical means, you basically are stuck with the color you choose. Over the years, less than 20, they will dry rot and become brittle and will become damaged. Seams will separate, mitered corners will split, etc. Vinyl is the new aluminum as far as windows go.

You don't paint vinyl windows. In fact, most manufacturers will state that painting them voids the warranty. I have some friends with homes over 20 years old in Texas with builder installed vinyl windows and they are just fine.

How many people read their warranties for their windows? Not much I'd say. Read the fine print, if you have the warranty. You will see that the manufacturers are protecting themselves, not you. Most probably, the glass has even less of a warranty and the vinyl window manufacturer will not cover the glass, so what will you do with a window that is broken? Replace it.

Not quite sure what you are saying with this. And I've never known the glass itself to have a warranty against breaking. The windows installed in my home had a 2 year warranty on hardware (locks, balances, shoes, etc), have a 10 year warranty on seal failure between the 2 panes of glass, and warranty on the vinyl components for as long as I own the home.

[crone]

All the replacement windows we put in 3 houses in St. Louis and 1 house in Dallas had lifetime warranties on the glass seal. They were custom made by good companies. Replacement window companies come in all levels.