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Old 12-12-2016, 09:42 AM
 
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So I finally got a chance to drive the underground 635 Express Lanes in north Dallas last week, and they are awesome (and fairly inexpensive, from my east coast/EZ Pass tainted perspective). Three lanes, straight shot, underground, and cuts through one of the most congested areas of that region. For people that are willing to pay for the convenience, they offer a great alternative to get through north Dallas quickly if needed.

That brings me to the Loop and specifically, the section of the Loop between I-10 and 59. This seems like a perfect corridor to do something similar in Houston, basically building a six lane section beneath the existing freeway as was done in Dallas. It seems that there are already plans in place to build a set of four lane elevated lanes through the corridor at a cost of about $250 million. These lanes would ostensibly remain free and provide no local access between 10 and 59.

Given that some sort of congestion relief will eventually move forward with this section of 610, my question is which design do the Houstonians here prefer? It seems that there are strengths and weaknesses associated with both. Getting four free express lanes for $250 million seems like a huge win in terms of costs vs. benefits. Much of the bypass traffic would use the express lanes and the free lanes would be freed up for local traffic. But three potential problems would be the fact that only a single lane would merge into the regular 610 traffic (creating a bottleneck), that there would be no direct access to I-10, and that it would be a bit of an eyesore for one of Houston's nicest areas.

Now, let's talk about the other option that hasn't been discussed, which is a 635-style set of underground express lanes. The 635 project cost $2.7 billion, of which about $500 million was local funding (basically 2X what is being proposed for the 610 project). However, this was for about 18 miles of roadway - 13 for the I-635 lanes and another 5 for I-35 express lanes. This stretch of 610 is only 3.7 miles. I'm thinking total cost would be a little over 1 billion for this section, and assuming a similar funding structure to what was done in Dallas, total local/state cost would be around $200 million, which is less than the $250 million the state would pick up for the elevated design. However, the sunken design would be a toll project conceived as a public-private partnership - it would not be free for single occupancy drivers. It could possibly be free for HOV drivers however.

I do understand that underground lanes are challenging for Houston due to flooding issues, but given that we have the Washburn Tunnel (which, to my knowledge, has never flooded), I am not particularly concerned about that - 99.9% of the time the lanes will be operational and we can design an effective pumping and warning system to mitigate flooding.

Outside of potential engineering issues such as that, I think the design is feasible and would likely be more palatable for stakeholders in the area that have rejected the two previous elevated-freeway designs for the West Loop. What do you guys think? Would you prefer a free, elevated, four lane design, or a tolled, sunken, six-lane design? Or something else?
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:03 PM
 
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Personally, I've always been obsessed with a rail system. I think a rail system would be awesome for Houston. Specifically, I think the HOV lanes should have been rail lanes. I know that we have Metrorail, but I'm referring to a complete system like Chicago or New York's subway system. But that's just me. Your suggestions are quite interesting, but I think they would cost too much. However, if I had to pick one, I'd pick the elevated freeway over the tunnel.
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:02 AM
 
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There were preliminary talks about making the Rail Road ROW just east of the West Loop into an Express Toll (like the West Park Tollway) to bypass the West Loop.

I like key2thecity would rather more commuter rail and connectors to the light rail.

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Old 12-13-2016, 11:29 AM
 
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Rail is never going to be an effective solution to our traffic congestion and doesn't address the West Loop issue at all.

I think the rail ROW option in the last post would be most effective and economical but I don't think it would ever survive the opposition to cutting through Memorial Park. That is one of the city's most treasured areas.

I would be surprised if an elevated bypass over 610 could be done for only $250 million.

The Washburn Tunnel flooded in Hurricane Ike. While that is a rare occurrence I don't think the public wants tunnels and why pay 4x or more and add yet another tolled road. Jeez, it's getting hard to drive anywhere without paying tolls
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Memorial Villages
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I don't see rail having a significant impact either. Even if a rail line could zip you along 610 or through Memorial Park, you'd almost certainly have to transfer to another rail or bus line to get you to your final destination. At the end of the day, driving your car would've been about as quick. Eventually, new developments would preferentially coalesce around major rail stops, but this would be a long, expensive process (as would rail construction).

Buses aren't as quick as rail or as convenient as a car, but they do have one big advantage over rail (besides much lower costs). They can much more easily get you within walking distance of your final destination with no transfers. For example - P&R buses heading downtown make a circuit among the main office buildings, offering front-door service for both dropoffs and pickups. This could easily be replicated at other business districts (and in some cases already has). End result is a door-to-door travel time that isn't that different from taking a train and then transferring to a local bus, even when considering that the commuter bus is probably stuck in traffic for a portion of its journey.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:10 PM
 
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I definitely agree with those that see a need for more rail in general. I'm not really for the $7 billion I-45 rebuild mainly because I feel that we could better use that money for rail - we could get at least three, maybe four commuter rail lines out of $7 billion.

With that being said, rail obviously doesn't solve this particular issue. I hadn't heard about the railroad ROW being used to add a small toll facility, but to my knowledge that was still an active rail line. Is that no longer the case? I do think that's an interesting alternative to building more in the 610 ROW.

However, it would undoubtedly still be a toll facility - the elevated express lanes are envisaged as four free lanes with the alternative being six sunken (I probably shouldn't have used the term tunnel, as it will not be a true tunnel) toll lanes.

I would rather see the lanes be free as they would get the most utilization that way. However, I think a four lane free facility might be obsolete the day it is built with instant congestion. It's probably too small for that corridor.

The six-lane facility would be better from that perspective. But I know no one (myself included) wants to pay a toll if it can be avoided.

Pros and cons to all three ideas, but good to know that there is at least some momentum towards trying to fix the disaster that is the West Loop.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Houston
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Elevated or tunneled I really don't care. Just give us another option to get through that stretch of insanity. I'll gladly pay a toll to bypass it.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch View Post
I definitely agree with those that see a need for more rail in general. I'm not really for the $7 billion I-45 rebuild mainly because I feel that we could better use that money for rail - we could get at least three, maybe four commuter rail lines out of $7 billion.
Not even two. Heavy rail is running $250 million per mile these days and Houston reaches out a lot of miles. Not to mention that four commuter rail lines wouldn't carry half the number of people as I-45.

Our roadway capacity would double under a driverless car system, which will happen long before we could build out a complete rail system.
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:53 PM
 
100 posts, read 128,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch View Post
I definitely agree with those that see a need for more rail in general. I'm not really for the $7 billion I-45 rebuild mainly because I feel that we could better use that money for rail - we could get at least three, maybe four commuter rail lines out of $7 billion.
Yeah it would be nice if they included Commuter Rail in the I-45 rebuild, just like they planned with I-10 before they gutted it. I'm unfortunately very pessimistic of them including that. The good'ish news is the High Speed Houston - Dallas line seems to be proceeding.


Quote:
With that being said, rail obviously doesn't solve this particular issue.
Yeah in general it would help more indirectly. A commuter line wouldn't connect to anything yet... Though very interestingly this could tie into the Culbertson commuter rail pet project along U.S. 90A and the proposed High Speed Rail Terminal at the NW mall.
Metro, Culberson announce agreement on transit - Houston Chronicle


Quote:
I hadn't heard about the railroad ROW being used to add a small toll facility, but to my knowledge that was still an active rail line. Is that no longer the case? I do think that's an interesting alternative to building more in the 610 ROW.
It's still in use, I've been stopped by trains many times
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Old 12-15-2016, 11:24 AM
 
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Ah OK - so if the train ROW is still in use, do we know if the operators are actually planning on abandoning it? Seems like a non-starter if that's not the case.

If that ROW actually does become available however, I tend to think it would generate less opposition than building in the 610 ROW, especially because the trains already cross through Memorial Park. The bridges already exist, so converting them to road bridges shouldn't be too big of a deal.

I'm of the perspective however, that building a four lane facility, whether in the 610 ROW or not, is probably too small to make a long term difference for this section.
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