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The post is about corporate relocations. You state mentions sports team mattering. That's debunked. Sway it any other way you want.
You didn't debunk anything you thew out claims and chatter. That's how you always roll.
1. Pre-covid MLB revenue was increasing that does not indicate death or even decay. No matter how hard you bend reality.
2. The Astros were a very low payroll horrible team several years ago. The Ranges sent their last expensive old guy away two days ago. They are exactly where the Astros were a few years ago. Very young, very low payroll, two guys who are excellent trade bait for more picks, lots of free-agent money for next 2022 and the year after.
3. Per your team values comment and numbers-twisting:
Cowboys are worth ~80% more than The Texans.
Pre-season the Rockets and Mavs were ranked 7 and 9 in NBA team worth and that included Hardin's value to the Rockets. Over the last several weeks The Rockets have moved from a long shot title contender to a long shot to make the playoffs at all.
The Astros are the 11th most valuable MLB team, The Rangers 13th. The Astros have been great and the Rangers terrible meaning there's a good chance in a few years The Rangers will overtake Houston, new ballpark and all.
The Stars are worth infinitely more than Houston"s NHL effort.
You didn't debunk anything you thew out claims and chatter. That's how you always roll.
1. Pre-covid MLB revenue was increasing that does not indicate death or even decay. No matter how hard you bend reality.
2. The Astros were a very low payroll horrible team several years ago. The Ranges sent their last expensive old guy away two days ago. They are exactly where the Astros were a few years ago. Very young, very low payroll, two guys who are excellent trade bait for more picks, lots of free-agent money for next 2022 and the year after.
3. Per your team values comment and numbers-twisting:
Cowboys are worth ~80% more than The Texans.
Pre-season the Rockets and Mavs were ranked 7 and 9 in NBA team worth and that included Hardin's value to the Rockets. Over the last several weeks The Rockets have moved from a long shot title contender to a long shot to make the playoffs at all.
The Astros are the 11th most valuable MLB team, The Rangers 13th. The Astros have been great and the Rangers terrible meaning there's a good chance in a few years The Rangers will overtake Houston, new ballpark and all.
The Stars are worth infinitely more than Houston"s NHL effort.
There is nothing like TMS in Houston.
Cool story
As great as your theory that MLB is a growing league sounds, it's a pathetic theory. Using revenue as a base is laughable. Much like the economy, unless there's a major recession, sport revenues will only go up. That doesn't make the league any healthier than it was 3 decades ago. I dont know what kind of stuff you're smoking, but anyone who would say with a straight face MLB is what it used to be is either confused or has been living under a rock for the last 3 decades. When's the last time the MLB has produced a star with the likes of a Lebron/Steph/Giannis? You have to go back to the roid era for that. Trout/Yelich/Bellinger aren't the household names that Lebron/Steph/Giannis are and this even being argued is dumb in its own. Growing up on baseball, I wish you were right but unfortunately that's not the case.
The Cowboys lead on the the Mavs is far superior than that of the Rockets on the Mavs. As well as that of the Astros to the Rangers no question there. This is true.
And since you're equating success with value... Despite being the highest valued team, the Cowboys haven't had the success to show for it.
Even with sustainable success, the Mavs won't likely pass up the Rockets. And that's just assuming that even happens in the first place. Prior to the world series, the Astros and Rangers were neck and neck in value. The world series just put them over. Having some good years coming up won't do much to separate values for them either.
Dallas guy here and it must be noted that Houston has done better recruiting relos the last year or two than in the past.
Every time I read similar threads I get a belly laugh from the implication that restaurant types and quality in DFW are lame compared to Houston....Houston clobbers DFW in terms of cultural amenities and similarly Houston clobbers DFW in medicine as if DFW has poor docs, no medical research yielding more sick people and we are hungry and uncultured too.
The truth of the matter is any differences in these areas are trivial in fact, matters of opinion or simply don't matter much or at all to company relocation decision makers.
Here are some things that do matter.
1. Houston suffers significantly higher property crime rates and violent crime rates than Dallas. Further, many of Dallas' most important suburbs have very low violent crime rates - read Plano, Allen, Prosper etc. and Southlake, Westlake etc. ranging towards Fort Worth.
2. It's easier to get around DFW by car than Metro-Houston.
2.1. It's much easier to drive from key bedroom communities with outstanding schools into downtown Dallas than the same in Houston.
2.2. It's taken decades but a number of areas south of downtown Dallas are improving. There have always been awesome neighborhoods south of DTD like Kessler Park and The Colorado Blvd. areas in Oak cliff but currently more modest neighborhoods are improving. This gives corporate relocation workers more close in areas to live relative to DTD.
3. The weak/no-zoning angle is a problem for Houston.
4. The really rough neighborhoods around Hobby are a problem.
5. DFW + Love + Addison + Alliance (the business development around Alliance is just amazing) etc. > Hobby + Bush + Spaceport etc.
6. DFW is something of a model of large metro diversification, Houston less so. 7. DISD > HISD.
8. Cowboys + Mavs + Rangers + Stars + FC Dallas + Texas Motor Speedway etc. > Texans + Rockets + sign stealing Astros + Dynamo etc.
9. A couple people upthread mentioned this factor, Dallas just shows better than Houston to outsiders.
__________
I really like both cities, DFW and Metro-Houston are the 1 and 2 GDP producers in the south each way ahead of Atlanta at 3. To me Houston has a fun vibe that I don't quite feel in Dallas. But Dallas has a comfortable family thing with more close in upscale neighborhoods that we prefer. IMO relocation types feel that too.
I agree with most of your list but people are not relocating to Dallas over Houston because of Dallas school district. The 2 largest school districts in the state are both ranked very very poorly. The districts in the burbs help Families and companies choose Dallas over Houston. DFW burbs just have more and better school districts surrounding their cores more than Houston. But both DISD and FWISD rank just as poor as Houston.
Also do companies really care about sports franchises? Unless your company is involved in sports I doubt that has little to do with why they chose to relocate. I'm pretty sure most Cali transplants will still be Laker and Dodger fans before they choose the Mavs or Rangers. Cowboys brand holds a lot of weight though but I highly doubt it's influencing any large companies to relocate to DFW.
Overall though DFW is a model if anything when it comes to large sprawling metros. It's centrally located. Have one of the best and busiest airports in the nation. I believe it takes 2 to 3 hours to get to most places in the United States which is a huge plus. It was never dependent on one industry like Houston was to O&G. Not to mention the O&G industry can be polarizing to people outside of the industry. I'd also say even though Houston has a lot more of the corporate O&G jobs here unlike West Texas or Tulsa it's still attracts more of a blue collar rouughneck demographic that might seem off putting to those not real familiar with Houston's overall demographic. Also DFW has less traffic and better infrastructure than Houston. DFW also looks more polished than Houston overall which probably does attract companies here. DFW sprawl is more organized while Houston's sprawl is pretty all over the place full of unincorporated areas and lack of zoning. And Houston for a long time never tried to market itself to companies like DFW or Austin has. Houston just now started marketing itself as such.
Oh and Houston is more vulnerable to natural disasters than DFW is. Don't get me wrong DFW is not ideal either. But Houston has a lot going for it and against it at the same time and the weather adds to that. Plus DFW summers are more tolerable than Houston summers.
Me personally, I enjoy the city of Houston better than DFW overall. Definitely like Houston's cultural institutions, food scene, and diversity better than DFW. When I was younger I definitely liked Houston a lot more and felt like it catered to my taste a lot more. But the older I get and now that I have a Family, Dallas appeals to me a lot more nowadays. It does have more family and career upward mobility appeal to me than Houston at this moment. Now if I can see that appeal living in Houston which compared to other cities is still a fairly healthy city culturally and economically then I can only imagine how other people feel who live in cities deprived of economic stability.
This forum generally keeps repeating the trope that DFW suburbs are better / safer than Houston suburbs. Over and over. Yet, no real evidence has been presented to support this. The main difference to me is that DFW affluent suburbs are massed together and "insulated" from middle / working class areas unlike Houston where they're spread around and usually adjacent to lower-income areas. Big deal.
Given that suburbs (their labor pool and housing value) are such a huge part of the factor for corporate relocation (maybe the biggest, outside of quality of commercial air service), can we please quash this misleading opinion? It could be very damaging to Houston.
This forum generally keeps repeating the trope that DFW suburbs are better / safer than Houston suburbs. Over and over. Yet, no real evidence has been presented to support this. The main difference to me is that DFW affluent suburbs are massed together and "insulated" from middle / working class areas unlike Houston where they're spread around and usually adjacent to lower-income areas. Big deal.
Given that suburbs (their labor pool and housing value) are such a huge part of the factor for corporate relocation (maybe the biggest, outside of quality of commercial air service), can we please quash this misleading opinion? It could be very damaging to Houston.
It has actually been shown with data in past threads as to why the suburbs are better up there. Im not going to bother doing it again if you didnt read it the first time.
I agree with most of your list but people are not relocating to Dallas over Houston because of Dallas school district. The 2 largest school districts in the state are both ranked very very poorly. The districts in the burbs help Families and companies choose Dallas over Houston. DFW burbs just have more and better school districts surrounding their cores more than Houston. But both DISD and FWISD rank just as poor as Houston.
Also do companies really care about sports franchises? Unless your company is involved in sports I doubt that has little to do with why they chose to relocate. I'm pretty sure most Cali transplants will still be Laker and Dodger fans before they choose the Mavs or Rangers. Cowboys brand holds a lot of weight though but I highly doubt it's influencing any large companies to relocate to DFW.
Overall though DFW is a model if anything when it comes to large sprawling metros. It's centrally located. Have one of the best and busiest airports in the nation. I believe it takes 2 to 3 hours to get to most places in the United States which is a huge plus. It was never dependent on one industry like Houston was to O&G. Not to mention the O&G industry can be polarizing to people outside of the industry. I'd also say even though Houston has a lot more of the corporate O&G jobs here unlike West Texas or Tulsa it's still attracts more of a blue collar rouughneck demographic that might seem off putting to those not real familiar with Houston's overall demographic. Also DFW has less traffic and better infrastructure than Houston. DFW also looks more polished than Houston overall which probably does attract companies here. DFW sprawl is more organized while Houston's sprawl is pretty all over the place full of unincorporated areas and lack of zoning. And Houston for a long time never tried to market itself to companies like DFW or Austin has. Houston just now started marketing itself as such.
Oh and Houston is more vulnerable to natural disasters than DFW is. Don't get me wrong DFW is not ideal either. But Houston has a lot going for it and against it at the same time and the weather adds to that. Plus DFW summers are more tolerable than Houston summers.
Me personally, I enjoy the city of Houston better than DFW overall. Definitely like Houston's cultural institutions, food scene, and diversity better than DFW. When I was younger I definitely liked Houston a lot more and felt like it catered to my taste a lot more. But the older I get and now that I have a Family, Dallas appeals to me a lot more nowadays. It does have more family and career upward mobility appeal to me than Houston at this moment. Now if I can see that appeal living in Houston which compared to other cities is still a fairly healthy city culturally and economically then I can only imagine how other people feel who live in cities deprived of economic stability.
Good post.
We only disagree at the margins about all this.
A. With my DISD > HISD comment I was being lazy. Big businesses considering moves have to think about lots employees and their children. Three DISD magnets are consistently ranked above HISD's top magnet, TAG is always in the top five nationally. The K-12 pattern ending with Woodrow Wilson High School is less than 5 miles from the center of the Quadrangle, the top rated DISD comprehensive by all reasonable academic metrics, and Woodrow serves the very desirable Lakewood neighborhood. The Dallas and North Dallas Cambers of Commerce sell that angle hard and it has worked. The sale is if you move here some of your employees can live in one of DFW's best neighborhoods, send their kids to a good and improving public school progression and have a 8-12 minute commute to the center of DTD. There's nothing like that in Houston at least of any scale.
A1. DISD is, painfully slowly, leveraging the K-12 success ending at WW elsewhere. In North Dallas (south of 635) parents prostrate themselves to live in Withers, DeGolyer and a couple other elementary attendance zones. The obvious plan is for these engaged families and kids to improve TJ and W.T. White high schools down the line.
So in the main DISD and HISD are terrible districts that require wholesale improvement. But for relos thinking of DTD and North Dallas DISD has some clear advantages.
B. Pro-sports are a huge draw. It's either happenstance or not that Toyota relo'd to a location a couple miles from The Rangers minor league affiliate The Frisco Roughriders. I haven't seen any studies but I have been to a few games the last couple of years and the crowds are significantly over-represented by people of Asian extraction. Toyota has to be a big part of that.
B1. Companies leverage suites and seats at pro sporting events as a normal course of business. I doubt having NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL teams is often a deciding factor but it can't hurt. That said I bet there was little chance Toyota would move to a metro without MLB and other levels of baseball.
A. With my DISD > HISD comment I was being lazy. Big businesses considering moves have to think about lots employees and their children. Three DISD magnets are consistently ranked above HISD's top magnet, TAG is always in the top five nationally. The K-12 pattern ending with Woodrow Wilson High School is less than 5 miles from the center of the Quadrangle, the top rated DISD comprehensive by all reasonable academic metrics, and Woodrow serves the very desirable Lakewood neighborhood. The Dallas and North Dallas Cambers of Commerce sell that angle hard and it has worked. The sale is if you move here some of your employees can live in one of DFW's best neighborhoods, send their kids to a good and improving public school progression and have a 8-12 minute commute to the center of DTD. There's nothing like that in Houston at least of any scale.
A1. DISD is, painfully slowly, leveraging the K-12 success ending at WW elsewhere. In North Dallas (south of 635) parents prostrate themselves to live in Withers, DeGolyer and a couple other elementary attendance zones. The obvious plan is for these engaged families and kids to improve TJ and W.T. White high schools down the line.
So in the main DISD and HISD are terrible districts that require wholesale improvement. But for relos thinking of DTD and North Dallas DISD has some clear advantages.
B. Pro-sports are a huge draw. It's either happenstance or not that Toyota relo'd to a location a couple miles from The Rangers minor league affiliate The Frisco Roughriders. I haven't seen any studies but I have been to a few games the last couple of years and the crowds are significantly over-represented by people of Asian extraction. Toyota has to be a big part of that.
B1. Companies leverage suites and seats at pro sporting events as a normal course of business. I doubt having NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL teams is often a deciding factor but it can't hurt. That said I bet there was little chance Toyota would move to a metro without MLB and other levels of baseball.
The DISD magnet rankings are marginal differences as well though. I highly doubt their moving the needle especially considering how many companies specifically relocate to the North Burbs in comparison to DT Dallas.
You say there's nothing like that in Houston? Not true and if you try to dispute the fact it's marginal at best.
Debakey HS for Health Professions is ranked #3rd in the state. Located right in TMC not to far from Rice University and the cultural HUB that is the museum district. 15 mins. from Downtown. You also have Carnegie Vanguard High school that is nationally ranked and in close proximity to downtown. You also have Challenge Early College High School and Eastwood Academy that are nationally ranked.
Keep in mind that Houston has affluent neighborhoods like Bellaire and West University in the actual city. These wealthy families are sending their children somewhere within HISD.
By and large DISD and HISD are horrible in comparison to other school districts in the state. And most families are relocating to the North burbs in DFW because of the abundant of schools within those school districts. While the magnet schools in DISD and HISD are nationally ranked is it enough to make the masses move within the city in comparison to the burbs? Data proves otherwise.
If I'm wrong i'm wrong though. I have no dog in the fight I just want a fair fight that's all.
A. With my DISD > HISD comment I was being lazy. Big businesses considering moves have to think about lots employees and their children. Three DISD magnets are consistently ranked above HISD's top magnet, TAG is always in the top five nationally. The K-12 pattern ending with Woodrow Wilson High School is less than 5 miles from the center of the Quadrangle, the top rated DISD comprehensive by all reasonable academic metrics, and Woodrow serves the very desirable Lakewood neighborhood. The Dallas and North Dallas Cambers of Commerce sell that angle hard and it has worked. The sale is if you move here some of your employees can live in one of DFW's best neighborhoods, send their kids to a good and improving public school progression and have a 8-12 minute commute to the center of DTD. There's nothing like that in Houston at least of any scale.
A1. DISD is, painfully slowly, leveraging the K-12 success ending at WW elsewhere. In North Dallas (south of 635) parents prostrate themselves to live in Withers, DeGolyer and a couple other elementary attendance zones. The obvious plan is for these engaged families and kids to improve TJ and W.T. White high schools down the line.
So in the main DISD and HISD are terrible districts that require wholesale improvement. But for relos thinking of DTD and North Dallas DISD has some clear advantages.
B. Pro-sports are a huge draw. It's either happenstance or not that Toyota relo'd to a location a couple miles from The Rangers minor league affiliate The Frisco Roughriders. I haven't seen any studies but I have been to a few games the last couple of years and the crowds are significantly over-represented by people of Asian extraction. Toyota has to be a big part of that.
B1. Companies leverage suites and seats at pro sporting events as a normal course of business. I doubt having NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL teams is often a deciding factor but it can't hurt. That said I bet there was little chance Toyota would move to a metro without MLB and other levels of baseball.
I will give you one thing. The presence of sports teams along with their stadiums for event are an attracting factor. You're not wrong here. Even though Austin is proving the need for sports teams to not be ws big of a thing. However, Austin is supposively an attractive, awesome, trendy city. But for cities that aren't quite as "trendy" and "attractive" like Houston and Dallas, I'll give you that having sports teams is a big push. Dallas being "family friendly" sure is part in do to its sports teams.
Where you're wrong is moving there specifically for the sports teams that exist. Toyota didn't say 'let's go stay where the Mavs stay!". If you have all or most of the major sports along with decent accommodating arenas, this is the benefit regardless of who plays in them.
This forum generally keeps repeating the trope that DFW suburbs are better / safer than Houston suburbs. Over and over. Yet, no real evidence has been presented to support this. The main difference to me is that DFW affluent suburbs are massed together and "insulated" from middle / working class areas unlike Houston where they're spread around and usually adjacent to lower-income areas. Big deal.
Given that suburbs (their labor pool and housing value) are such a huge part of the factor for corporate relocation (maybe the biggest, outside of quality of commercial air service), can we please quash this misleading opinion? It could be very damaging to Houston.
You made the charge it's up to you to make your case not the other way around. However, let's stick with Plano for a moment. And frankly, I don't know that the prime suspect DFW 'burbs are better per se but they have proven to be better for corporate relocations without any question.
Plano's population is around 285,000. The town sports three fantastic public high schools and related feeder patterns plus a suite of private school options ranging from good through fantastic. The town is a standalone professional employment center - with national, regional and sectional HQs .....IIRC Plano sports 35 companies that employ more than 500 people, more than half of those over 1,000. And as a kicker Plano has a Level-1 ER. Plano is usually ranked in the top 2-5 safest cities in The US over 200,000.....neck and neck with Irvine, Scottsdale and Boise.
It's just a fact there isn't a similar satellite city around Houston.
This forum generally keeps repeating the trope that DFW suburbs are better / safer than Houston suburbs. Over and over. Yet, no real evidence has been presented to support this. The main difference to me is that DFW affluent suburbs are massed together and "insulated" from middle / working class areas unlike Houston where they're spread around and usually adjacent to lower-income areas. Big deal.
Given that suburbs (their labor pool and housing value) are such a huge part of the factor for corporate relocation (maybe the biggest, outside of quality of commercial air service), can we please quash this misleading opinion? It could be very damaging to Houston.
In a subjective world where opinions are our own... Yes, there's no suburbs that are evidently better than those in Houston. But for the purposes of this thread, which seems to be a combination of corporate relocations and branch campuses, Dallas has had a better history of this, especially if your definition of a "suburb" makes it to where in order to be a suburb, you have to be outside of the city limits. I say this because there's places within the city limits that to me are as suburban as it comes. Particularly the Energy Corridor and West Chase.
It is true that one can say the Houston suburbs are as good or better than the DFW suburbs since its up to them to decide their opinion. And despite Houston having some great business centric suburbs like the Woodlands, Sugar Land, and Katy is certainly improving, if we discount EC and WC from being suburbs, DFW is objectively better for business. If one's definition of nice suburb doesn't specify on business, than you're absolutely right, there's no evidence that DFW has better suburbs than Houston. I personally don't even like suburban living, but if I did, I would care less about the business side. I'd live in Katy because it has more culture than your typical suburb. And even though Katy is improving it's corporate scene, this is a nonfactor to me.
Also for the sake of this matter, the most important corporate relocation Houston has scored is the Howard Hughes Company from Dallas. Because they're synonymous for building corporate campuses and family style housing. Their new shift to Houston is important for continuing to build corporate campuses, since they are kings of it.
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