Towne Lake Worsening? (Houston, Dallas, Carrollton: cul-de-sac, transplants, appliances)

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by usc619

I grew up in "ghetto" apartments as well and I can 100% vouch for this comment. Funny it's always some yuppie or someone who've never walked in my shoes trying to make a case. SMH

I live in a SF neighborhood in suburban Houston that's had multiple large apartment complexes built all around it. I have no complaints.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by hbcu

That's the issue - you build a new one - one sign of trouble or in some cases, lack of being able to sit down in one area, folks are ready to jump to a new suburb as each new burb brings the less expensive burb with them in the general area

now you have these entering the market
https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/...d-to-rent.html

build to rent - and the homes look cheaply made - your already asking for trouble

As long as you're not advocating that governments forcibly limit the ability of property owners and developers to build it, I have no problem with your dismal view of the product.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

You keep calling for "planning." I'm all for planning. Zoning is NOT planning;

you sure?

Zoning is a planning control tool for regulating the built environment and creating functional real estate markets (https://urban-regeneration.worldbank.org/node/39)

Dividing land based on uses (zoning) is planning. In simplest terms, when a city plots land based on use type, are you really saying that's not a form of planning?

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Nope, no one said any of this here.^^

How many times in the Houston forum (various threads) have there been complaints about North Katy, that too much "KB type homes" were allowed to be built there? And there was just a post, can't remember if it was in this thread or not, that said North Katy was too close to the "nice" stuff in Cypress and South Katy, and that could cause potential problems.

North Katy is an asset to the West Houston metro because it provides entry-level housing for middle class people. Could some design elements of the subdivisions be better? More amenities for the community? Sure. It doesn't take government land use zoning to encourage or require that, however.

[NigerianNightmare]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

I'd argue that DC, Miami, and Atlanta all have a sizable concentration of less safe suburbs too. I don't see that as unique to Houston per se but more of an offshoot of the affordability of those suburbs and the fact that average criminals/criminally inclined folks can afford them too. That may not be the entire reason but it does play a part imo.

I disagree with this statement as it’s definitely unique to Houston and maybe LA and Atlanta is the only other comparable cities when talking how new some of these areas are and how far flung they are from the core. D.C has the inner beltway of PG County but the remaining suburbia has less than 50 homicides for nearly 4,500,000 people, it’s extremely safe, outside of that one suburban region, significantly safer than suburban Houston.

Atlanta and Miami are more comparable but they also suffer from relatively small city boundaries. If Houston was just the inner loop, while it would have one of the safer inner cities with roughly 10 homicides per 100,000. Suburban Houston on the other hand meaning everything outside of the loop but still in the city limits would have a homicide rate of like 5-10 per 100,000, which may not seem bad but on the extreme end is like 10x higher than DC outside the city and that portion of PG County. Of course it ranges from areas like Cypress Station, Aldine/Greenspoint, Fondren, Sunnyside to Friendswood and Fulshear. But it’s still overall worse than many areas.

Even Miami a lot of the far flung suburban slums are areas that got developed decades ago along the coast but are physically far from Miami itself. In terms of new suburbia that isn’t a legacy city like Brockton or Newark, you’ll struggle to find any city in the country with that far flung suburbia already declining. That’s a very much Houston phenomenon, where 20 miles out theirs a brand new development already in decline.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

you sure?

Zoning is a planning control tool for regulating the built environment and creating functional real estate markets (https://urban-regeneration.worldbank.org/node/39)

Dividing land based on uses (zoning) is planning. In simplest terms, when a city plots land based on use type, are you really saying that's not a form of planning?

Zoning is an implementation tool, it is NOT planning. Just like subdivision codes and design standards are implementation tools. Governments can do quite a bit of planning without having using zoning or dictating land use generally. Ever heard of "form-based codes"? That's planning, and it can be used to shape development in many ways without dictating use or density, though some form-based codes do include regulations on height and even exclude some uses (like heavy industrial).

Street and thoroughfare plans are planning. Park and trail plans are planning. Public facilities plans are planning. None includes zoning.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare

I disagree with this statement as it’s definitely unique to Houston and maybe LA and Atlanta is the only other comparable cities when talking how new some of these areas are and how far flung they are from the core. D.C has the inner beltway of PG County but the remaining suburbia has less than 50 homicides for nearly 4,500,000 people, it’s extremely safe, outside of that one suburban region, significantly safer than suburban Houston.

Atlanta and Miami are more comparable but they also suffer from relatively small city boundaries. If Houston was just the inner loop, while it would have one of the safer inner cities with roughly 10 homicides per 100,000. Suburban Houston on the other hand meaning everything outside of the loop but still in the city limits would have a homicide rate of like 5-10 per 100,000, which may not seem bad but on the extreme end is like 10x higher than DC outside the city and that portion of PG County. Of course it ranges from areas like Cypress Station, Aldine/Greenspoint, Fondren, Sunnyside to Friendswood and Fulshear. But it’s still overall worse than many areas.

Even Miami a lot of the far flung suburban slums are areas that got developed decades ago along the coast but are physically far from Miami itself. In terms of new suburbia that isn’t a legacy city like Brockton or Newark, you’ll struggle to find any city in the country with that far flung suburbia already declining. That’s a very much Houston phenomenon, where 20 miles out theirs a brand new development already in decline.

What is your explanation for all the zoned DFW incorporated suburbs (Garland, Mesquite, Arlington, etc.) that were shiny new in the 1970s-80s and had gone into "decline" (by your terms) by the late 1990s?

[NigerianNightmare]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

What is your explanation for all the zoned DFW incorporated suburbs (Garland, Mesquite, Arlington, etc.) that were shiny new in the 1970s-80s and had gone into "decline" (by your terms) by the late 1990s?

I’m not saying decline doesn’t happen. But besides maybe Garland border with Dallas, and maybe a small portion of East Arlington. I don’t think you could argue any of these cities are as dangerous as Alief, Cypress Station, Greenspoint/Aldine. Even within Houston, Pasadena is the declining inner suburb and it’s nowhere as bad as similar areas crime wise on other parts of the metro. Hell if we do it by distance which is 10-15 miles rather than just unincorporated areas around Houston, here’s a list of neighborhoods you can compare to Irving, Garland, Grand Prairie, Mesquite and Arlington as far as distance is concerned.

Acres Homes, South Acres, Hobby Area, Northshore/East Houston, Westwood (Worst part of Alief), Westbury, Brays Oak, Westchase, Spring Branch, Memorial Villages

If you asked most people who’ve been to DFW and Houston which list was worse, I don’t think it would be a question, I even tried to just list neighborhoods in a circle so theirs good neighborhoods for Houston while the nicest suburbs in that distance measurement like North Dallas was left of the list.

[NigerianNightmare]

For example a perfect example is Williamson County and Katy/Cypress.

Believe it or not if you take the zip codes of the Katy Area + Cypress even at this further extent I want to say it’s still just around the median income of Williamson County maybe even higher. Now nothing in Williamson County looks as well-put together as Cinco Ranch or Bridgeland, they’ve got hills but it’s obvious these communities are larger. On the flip side you cannot find North Katy levels of general decline in Williamson County.

East Round Rock through me off completely staying there, for a couple months. Because it gives Old Katy/North Katy vibes but it’s so solidly middle class that you feel like you can go out at anytime of the day.

Living in Houston and even Katy I had forgotten that their actually was a middle in middle class. Because I had been in lower middle class North Katy or Upper Middle Class, South Katy majority of my childhood.

I don’t even know if theirs a part of Houston that truly feels middle-class. Another area like this is the Hurst-Euless-Bedford portion of Dallas. I think the lack of zoning leads to MPCs that lock itself into the Upper Middle class with some middle class housing, like Tamarron in South Katy (middle class neighborhood in a sea of upper middle class). Or you get the one off middle class neighborhood surrounded by starter homes which now means this is a middle class neighborhood in a lower middle class area. This is nearly the development across all of Houston.

Even the areas that were built as middle class, are now engulfed with apartments or are so close to the city center that they no longer have middle class prices for the homes.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare

I’m not saying decline doesn’t happen. But besides maybe Garland border with Dallas, and maybe a small portion of East Arlington. I don’t think you could argue any of these cities are as dangerous as Alief, Cypress Station, Greenspoint/Aldine. Even within Houston, Pasadena is the declining inner suburb and it’s nowhere as bad as similar areas crime wise on other parts of the metro. Hell if we do it by distance which is 10-15 miles rather than just unincorporated areas around Houston, here’s a list of neighborhoods you can compare to Irving, Garland, Grand Prairie, Mesquite and Arlington as far as distance is concerned.

Acres Homes, South Acres, Hobby Area, Northshore/East Houston, Westwood (Worst part of Alief), Westbury, Brays Oak, Westchase, Spring Branch, Memorial Villages

If you asked most people who’ve been to DFW and Houston which list was worse, I don’t think it would be a question, I even tried to just list neighborhoods in a circle so theirs good neighborhoods for Houston while the nicest suburbs in that distance measurement like North Dallas was left of the list.

Yes, Houston's least desirable areas (to affluent white people at least) are its inner / middle suburbs. But I'm not seeing the point of your circle list. You have predominately single family areas like Acres Homes and South Acres that are undesirable. You have apartment concentrations like Westwood that are undesirable - but also ones like Westchase that catering to the working and middle class and are largely fine and provide great access to job opportunities. You have areas of mobile homes like East Houston / Cloverleaf. What is your point? Zoning would have magically made all of this different and somehow better?

Houston's inner city (and increasingly its inner suburbs) has been a leader in revitalization over widespread areas, unlike say Dallas where revitalization and redevelopment had been much more limited in geographic scope. Lack of zoning has unquestionably been to Houston's benefit there.