More Tunnels and lower highways in Houston.... (Post: zoning, codes)

[Spade]

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Everyone on this forum seems to think rail transit will improve their daily transit time. In real life, commuters living in NYC can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 1-1/2 hours to get to work - using the subway, ferry and bus systems (no - you can't get everywhere by subway even in a tiny place like NYC, and walking to station with the line you need can take 10 to 15 minutes, at a New Yorker's Olympic racewalker pace).

I don't think any one thinks that. It's just to offer another option. If you don't want to take it, don't take it. However, there needs to be another option for people that do not have or want a car and those who do not care to ride the bus. Yes, as great as NY's system is, it's still not as extensive as it's European peers like Madrid or London. NY is still an American city. It would probably be more extensive than it is now if we as a society didn't become slaves to the car. But think how long it would take if they took the car? In NYC's traffic? Yeah, it could take them as little as 15 minutes to as much as 2 hours. The quality of NYC's highway system is nothing compared to Houston's.

[Zhang Fei]

Originally Posted by Spade

I don't think any one thinks that. It's just to offer another option. If you don't want to take it, don't take it. However, there needs to be another option for people that do not have or want a car and those who do not care to ride the bus.

Subways do not pay for themselves. They require subsidies. New York has a gasoline tax that is 20 cents per gallon higher than Texas's to pay for the subway system. In New York, even if you don't live in New York City, you are paying for the subway system. Putting in a subway system takes away, rather than adds to choice. It's like telling someone that he's going to pay for a communal dinner whether he wants to eat or not. What's kind of amusing is that Texas has three times as many road miles to maintain as New York, but pays 20 cents per gallon less in gas tax because it doesn't have a money pit like New York City's subway system.

Originally Posted by Spade

Yes, as great as NY's system is, it's still not as extensive as it's European peers like Madrid or London. NY is still an American city. It would probably be more extensive than it is now if we as a society didn't become slaves to the car. But think how long it would take if they took the car? In NYC's traffic? Yeah, it could take them as little as 15 minutes to as much as 2 hours. The quality of NYC's highway system is nothing compared to Houston's.

So you're telling me that Houston's subway system is going to be better than New York's, despite being in a larger, lower density area? I think you're also a little overawed by what you appear to perceive as Western European superiority. New York City has the second longest route length among the world's subway systems (next only to London) and carries more riders than any single Western European subway system. By the way, New York City's subway system came into being before cars were invented. After all these years, the fastest way to get around New York City (and London) is still by car.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Subways do not pay for themselves. They require subsidies. New York has a gasoline tax that is 20 cents per gallon higher than Texas's to pay for the subway system. In New York, even if you don't live in New York City, you are paying for the subway system. Putting in a subway system takes away, rather than adds to choice. It's like telling someone that he's going to pay for a communal dinner whether he wants to eat or not.

Meanwhile, the money fairy is footing the bill for streets and highways and they pay for themselves, right?

[Spade]

jfre81 got your first point so I won't respond to that, Zhang Fei.

So you're telling me that Houston's subway system is going to be better than New York's, despite being in a larger, lower density area? I think you're also a little overawed by what you appear to perceive as Western European superiority. New York City has the second longest route length among the world's subway systems (next only to London) and carries more riders than any single Western European subway system. By the way, New York City's subway system came into being before cars were invented. After all these years, the fastest way to get around New York City (and London) is still by car.

NO I'm not saying that. Where did you decipher that from? NYC's system is GREAT. It is phenomonal. It runs 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and it is a system that every major American city (especially those that have 5 million or more people) should strive for. However, there are still large portions of the city that is not served by the system. The same cannot be said for Paris and Madrid and London. All of which are smaller in population than New York.

Besides, it maybe faster because many of the New Yorkers do not own cars because they do not need it or want it which leads to less people on the road. Also, it carries more than any single Western European city but not by much as both Paris and London are both over a billion per year themselves.

[Zhang Fei]

Originally Posted by jfre81

Meanwhile, the money fairy is footing the bill for streets and highways and they pay for themselves, right?

Couple of things. One, people need roads so they can get food and other supplies*. I don't think teleportation is currently an option, and I don't think subways are used at all for trucking TV's or Doritos to NYC stores. Two, the gasoline tax, road, bridge and tunnel tolls pay for roads. And the subway. In 2005, ticket prices only paid for 40% of the New York transit system's annual expenses. The other $6b was made up from motorists via tolls and taxes and general taxpayer funds.

* In fact, one reason people in Afghanistan are so poor is because it has so little road infrastructure - five times the size of New York state with 1/8 the roads. There is a reason that since Roman times, roads have been a mark of civilization.

[blkgiraffe]

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Couple of things. One, people need roads so they can get food and other supplies*. I don't think teleportation is currently an option, and I don't think subways are used at all for trucking TV's or Doritos to NYC stores. Two, the gasoline tax, road, bridge and tunnel tolls pay for roads. And the subway. In 2005, ticket prices only paid for 40% of the New York transit system's annual expenses. The other $6b was made up from motorists via tolls and taxes and general taxpayer funds.

* In fact, one reason people in Afghanistan are so poor is because it has so little road infrastructure - five times the size of New York state with 1/8 the roads. There is a reason that since Roman times, roads have been a mark of civilization.

Wait.....Houston dosen't have roads? Btw, are you sure about that teleportation thing, I was sure Houston had that.

[jd2008]

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Couple of things. One, people need roads so they can get food and other supplies*. I don't think teleportation is currently an option, and I don't think subways are used at all for trucking TV's or Doritos to NYC stores. Two, the gasoline tax, road, bridge and tunnel tolls pay for roads. And the subway. In 2005, ticket prices only paid for 40% of the New York transit system's annual expenses. The other $6b was made up from motorists via tolls and taxes and general taxpayer funds.

* In fact, one reason people in Afghanistan are so poor is because it has so little road infrastructure - five times the size of New York state with 1/8 the roads. There is a reason that since Roman times, roads have been a mark of civilization.

Hate to break it to you but fuel/petrol taxes are not enough to cover our highways and roads in this country. They are also subsidized through general tax income.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by jd2008

Hate to break it to you but fuel/petrol taxes are not enough to cover our highways and roads in this country. They are also subsidized through general tax income.

Yep.

Transportation infrastructure is not a moneymaker. Not highways, not mass transit, not even airlines which were getting bailed out by the government long before the automakers and banks. Our tax dollars subsidize it all. That doesn't mean it's not a necessity. Since we really can't avoid that, let's go for the most efficient thing.

[jd2008]

Originally Posted by jfre81

Yep.

Transportation infrastructure is not a moneymaker. Not highways, not mass transit, not even airlines which were getting bailed out by the government long before the automakers and banks. Our tax dollars subsidize it all. That doesn't mean it's not a necessity. Since we really can't avoid that, let's go for the most efficient thing.

While I agree with you that Houston needs to start thinking ahead (for once!) and start to develop a more multi-modal transportation system, for it to work, there have to be some changes to the way the city develops. This city needs a better pedestrian infrastructure if people are going to walk. That means better sidewalks...hell, in some cases sidewalks to begin with! That means better and more crosswalks. In my neighborhood (Midtown), supposedly the most pedestrian friendly place in Houston, you can't even get across some of these streets to walk to the Metro without fearing for your life. Finally, there needs to be better development codes in parts of the city where density is increasing. Get rid of setbacks, no parking lots in the front along the street, require wider sidewalks, trees along the road, etc. The way the city currently allows sprawl-like, strip-mall development right next to urban buildings sucks.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by jd2008

In my neighborhood (Midtown), supposedly the most pedestrian friendly place in Houston, you can't even get across some of these streets to walk to the Metro without fearing for your life.

Like where? I get around just fine over there.

You're right about the codes though. People blame the no-zoning thing, but residential vs. commercial uses have nothing to do with setbacks and such. This is where the supposed land-use free-for-all ends, as setbacks are strictly enforced by city ordinances set in the 1960s and 70s, Similar ordinances also include parking requirements. All this covers the real reason why you have a suburban-looking CVS right next to the Post Midtown.