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But each of these people will always have to buy food and other amenities. They will always pay sales tax, property tax, excise taxes, etc. And the ones that are working under a fake SSN will also be paying income tax, as well as social security and medicare taxes.
And stop complaining about illegal immigration with the tired, false, and hollow arguments of "they're stealing our jobs!" (like cleaning the toilets at the service station) and "they're not paying taxes!" (because income tax on a $10,000/year income would be so beneficial).
You're very misinformed, illegals know the game better than most of the people who defend them. Working under a stolen SS# they claim 99 dependents and pay zero in taxes then the person who owns that SS# is stuck dealing with a ton of addition income that they didn't know about and didn't claim on their taxes meaning tons of work and money for that person to clear their name. If you believe for one minute that all illegals are here working for little to no wages you're also wrong, it's not uncommon to find that they've racked up 30K or 40K in income on these stolen SS#s in a year, how do you think they afford to send so much cash back to Mexico?
They pay no income tax, they frequent businesses that support and employ other illegals and they exploit the social services of this country. You don't really think the lady in the taco truck selling food to these guys at the construction sites is really filing taxes at the end of the year do you?
You're very misinformed, illegals know the game better than most of the people who defend them. Working under a stolen SS# they claim 99 dependents and pay zero in taxes then the person who owns that SS# is stuck dealing with a ton of addition income that they didn't know about and didn't claim on their taxes meaning tons of work and money for that person to clear their name. If you believe for one minute that all illegals are here working for little to no wages you're also wrong, it's not uncommon to find that they've racked up 30K or 40K in income on these stolen SS#s in a year, how do you think they afford to send so much cash back to Mexico?
They pay no income tax, they frequent businesses that support and employ other illegals and they exploit the social services of this country. You don't really think the lady in the taco truck selling food to these guys at the construction sites is really filing taxes at the end of the year do you?
Wow. You are such an expert about this topic, I am wondering why you haven't come up with a solution.
Wow. You are such an expert about this topic, I am wondering why you haven't come up with a solution.
The solution is beyond simple and we don't even need to argue about the laws being written in AZ or the other states that want to follow with their own similar laws. ENFORCE the laws we already have, they would eliminate the illegal immigration problem in a matter of weeks/months. Ignore the bleeding heart idiots who throw around race cards any time you try to enforce a law and end this problem.
Current illegal immigrant supporters are saying the exact same things they were saying when Regan gave them amnesty years ago and look where that got us. We cannot afford our own problems, we surely can't afford to pay for Mexico's problems.
You're very misinformed, illegals know the game better than most of the people who defend them. Working under a stolen SS# they claim 99 dependents and pay zero in taxes then the person who owns that SS# is stuck dealing with a ton of addition income that they didn't know about and didn't claim on their taxes meaning tons of work and money for that person to clear their name. If you believe for one minute that all illegals are here working for little to no wages you're also wrong, it's not uncommon to find that they've racked up 30K or 40K in income on these stolen SS#s in a year, how do you think they afford to send so much cash back to Mexico?
They pay no income tax, they frequent businesses that support and employ other illegals and they exploit the social services of this country. You don't really think the lady in the taco truck selling food to these guys at the construction sites is really filing taxes at the end of the year do you?
Because painting the picture with broad sweeping strokes is such a great argument. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are many illegals that are exploiting the system as you have described. But if you think, even for a second, that any sizable portion of the ~30 million illegals in the country are operating in this fashion, then not only are YOU the one who's misinformed, but you might need to get out your tinfoil hat.
You make it sound like it's some kind of huge conspiracy. I have known PLENTY of illegal immigrants in my time. Hell, I pay one to take care of my lawn. Most of them are honest people that are just trying to make a living the best way they know how. And since many of them are uneducated with little means to move up in life, they are stuck with very low paying manual labor jobs.
If you think the answer is to punish these people by making their lives even harder (and potentially forcing their families further into poverty), then I guess that is the fundamental difference between us.
Amnesty alone is not the answer. It ultimately needs to be part of the answer, as we won't get anywhere having such a sizable portion of the population unaccounted-for. But like I said before, you go after the sources. And further, you can try to limit further immigration at the border. Maybe those tens of thousands of soldiers deployed overseas could actually be used productively.
And honestly, I would not have any real problem with this Arizona law if policemen were all gods with perfect judgment. But the fact of the matter is they aren't. They have biases and will make faulty judgment calls. And I guarantee you they will racially profile. ESPECIALLY since the law has a provision to allow the police/local government to be sued if they aren't enforcing the law good enough - this only puts more pressure on the police to get results.
A lot of people like to point out that the police can't just demand papers without having probable cause to first stop them. Yet another true point that would work just fine if policemen were gods with perfect judgment. But guess what? The police, according to this law, are to request papers if there is suspicion of any person being in the country illegally. How on earth can it get more subjective than that?? What the hell constitutes this "suspicion?" Are they supposed to look for people with shifty eyes?
No, they are going to look for Mexicans that are working in manual labor and that don't speak English. That's racial profiling. Further, those policemen are going to come up with any little thing to give them "probable cause" to stop them. They are perfectly within their power to pull you over just because you swerved a tiny little bit on the road because, hey, you could be drunk. But if you think they will do the same for white people, you're mistaken. And unfortunately, there are plenty of Mexican-Americans that are here completely legally that also fit those very criteria. That means that US citizens are inevitably going to be harassed by this law. Hell, a few pages back in this thread, someone posted a story of a man who was a US CITIZEN in Arizona that got stopped and jailed for not being able prove his citizenship. Ultimately his wife had to go home, get their birth certificates, and drive across town to get him out.
You want to enforce the law? Do it without stepping on the rest of us that aren't breaking it.
Dougman... no... Racial profiling? I don't have any problems with that... I will be more than happy to show my papers!!! When there are 95% of the illegals form South America... what are you gonna do? Ask native Americans for their papers?? No... I DO NOT get harassed just because someone asks for my papers. Please! They also ask for your drivers license. That would be proof enough in those states where illegals can't get it.
THe US cant even take care of it's own citizens. THe US dosen't need the legalization of 20 Mil. people. Take care of your own people first! The poverty line is very high. You said they just want to put food on the table.. have you ever been to Mexico, South America?? It is far from being third world. What about those people from Africa?? They can't just walk here.. There are millions of people in need. Maybe even billions. THe US can't take them all. Mexico knows that too. They desperately deport a LOT of people.. maybe even more than the US percentage wise. 2 years prison for the first offense and ten years for the second....
Ok. My citizenship test and interviewis at 8.30 am... keep your fingers crossed!! I did study it all.. felt like in high school again!! Maybe I will come back and report how it went.
You make it sound like it's some kind of huge conspiracy. I have known PLENTY of illegal immigrants in my time. Hell, I pay one to take care of my lawn. Most of them are honest people that are just trying to make a living the best way they know how. And since many of them are uneducated with little means to move up in life, they are stuck with very low paying manual labor jobs.
Two points come to mind. One is that honest people don't willingly break the law, and second, your argument could be used to justify breaking in to peoples' homes to steal or mugging someone on the street for their wallet. I mean after all, they're just trying to make a living the best they can....right?
Wow. You are such an expert about this topic, I am wondering why you haven't come up with a solution.
LOL the Irony....at least he's supporting a position (AZ's law/SOLUTION!) on how to deal with Illegals....I have not heard ONE solution as to how all of the people who are opposed to the AZ law would handle this problem
I'll be waiting in my casket when you're ready to answer.......
LOL the Irony....at least he's supporting a position (AZ's law/SOLUTION!) on how to deal with Illegals....I have not heard ONE solution as to how all of the people who are opposed to the AZ law would handle this problem
I'll be waiting in my casket when you're ready to answer.......
Give amnesty to those who are here already and come up with a bipartisan solution to enforce the border using drones, fences and Border Patrol.
And honestly, I would not have any real problem with this Arizona law if policemen were all gods with perfect judgment. But the fact of the matter is they aren't. They have biases and will make faulty judgment calls. And I guarantee you they will racially profile. ESPECIALLY since the law has a provision to allow the police/local government to be sued if they aren't enforcing the law good enough - this only puts more pressure on the police to get results.
Nice, disparage the police!! Of course, all of the police are a bunch of bigots who won't be able to stop themselves from racial profiling.
Wow, you are really raising the standard here....the police have to be gods with perfect judgment to eliminate all suspicion of bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougman82
A lot of people like to point out that the police can't just demand papers without having probable cause to first stop them. Yet another true point that would work just fine if policemen were gods with perfect judgment. But guess what? The police, according to this law, are to request papers if there is suspicion of any person being in the country illegally. How on earth can it get more subjective than that?? What the hell constitutes this "suspicion?" Are they supposed to look for people with shifty eyes?
They don't have to have probable cause to make a traffic stop (or many other legal contact situations)....that is a higher legal standard. A traffic stop requires less and the police have ALWAYS had to use their own judgment (along with training and experience) when making a stop...this isn't anything new. In the situation of a traffic stop suspicion starts and ends depending on if the the driver has a license. When the police are called to a home for a domestic dispute they ask for ID...suspicion starts and ends there. When the police are called to pick up a shoplifter from the local big box store they ask the suspect for ID....can you figure out the rest from here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougman82
No, they are going to look for Mexicans that are working in manual labor and that don't speak English. That's racial profiling. Further, those policemen are going to come up with any little thing to give them "probable cause" to stop them. They are perfectly within their power to pull you over just because you swerved a tiny little bit on the road because, hey, you could be drunk. But if you think they will do the same for white people, you're mistaken. And unfortunately, there are plenty of Mexican-Americans that are here completely legally that also fit those very criteria. That means that US citizens are inevitably going to be harassed by this law.
Wow....are you sure the cops aren't gods that they can tell just by looking at a passing car that a driver is Mexican, working in manual labor and doesn't speak English? AMAZING!!!
I'll ask again that you look up the difference between probable cause, reasonable suspicion and the standard police officers legally use to make ANY traffic stop or initiate ANY legal contact.
Again with disparaging the police...they are not going to stop white people for suspicion of driving drunk or running stop signs or speeding. What do you suppose the Mexican-American cops will do to demonstrate their bias? Will they also be pulling over only Mexican laborers who can't speak English or will they be looking for some variety of white illegals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougman82
Hell, a few pages back in this thread, someone posted a story of a man who was a US CITIZEN in Arizona that got stopped and jailed for not being able prove his citizenship. Ultimately his wife had to go home, get their birth certificates, and drive across town to get him out.
You want to enforce the law? Do it without stepping on the rest of us that aren't breaking it.
And why was detained? Did his SS# not match the name on his license? Did the license appear fake or was it expired? What is the OTHER side of the story or are you content to again assume that it was a display of bigotry on the part of the officer? A reasonable person would have all the facts before reaching a conclusion.
The law as it is will not result in any harassment of citizens or even non-citizens. (You need to look up the legal definition of harassment as well.) Look, no one is saying that there isn't any bias, it's impossible to eliminate completely but that is not a reason to not enforce laws. It's also not a reason to disparage law enforcement officers as an entire group. To do so shows YOUR bias. IF someone thinks their rights are violated they can seek legal recourse and the courts will decide. Nothing is new about that concept, nothing changes with the implementation of this law.
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Maybe I will come back and report how it went.
