Wiccan uninvited to city council meeting (Huntsville, Providence: roughest, home, public schools)

[OwlKaMyst]

The problem with the city is the same as what is happening here.
'Uncomfortable with a witch' - Wiccans are not witches- some are, but to be Wiccan is to be Wiccan, not a witch. Wicca is a religion, witchcraft is not a religion, it is a way or life.
'Who believe in nothing...pray to'. Again, Wiccans do have something they believe in. Rather than a single divine male supreme being, there is both male and female.

Issue here is ignorance.

[Becky2517]

Originally Posted by My name is Tom

I agree.

Have to admit an atheist invocation is kind of funny to me. Is that like an anorexic diet? Non dairy cheese? Pouring air into a glass?

I get the Wicca thing but I'm not sure what those that believe in nothing pray to??

You obviously don't "get the Wicca thing" if you believe they have nothing to pray to/for...as for them being atheist, in who's eyes? - WICCAN BELIEFS

We all believe in something - be it for Better Days, Buddah, Allah, Mother Earth etc. etc. not every religion pray to a god, that doesn't make them "not religious"!

[Christinerica]

Originally Posted by Becky2517

You obviously don't "get the Wicca thing" if you believe they have nothing to pray to/for...as for them being atheist, in who's eyes? - WICCAN BELIEFS

We all believe in something - be it for Better Days, Buddah, Allah, Mother Earth etc. etc. not every religion pray to a god, that doesn't make them "not religious"!

"I believe that we can be the answer to suffering in this life, I believe that you are more important than I, I believe that I can be a solution to a persons problems, I believe that I can help your life be better and in the process better my own." The atheist invocation...I approve of this message.

[Call]

Most of you are missing the point. The real issue is not religious invocations at public meetings, it is why my right to political expression is denied every Sabbath when I go to religious services. There's (almost) always someone who thinks he's in charge up there giving a sermon, but does he ever invite me up to speak about where I think the town ought to be spending MY tax money? I think that THIS is the issue which needs more attention.

[CoreLysium]

I'd rather they invite a nihilist to go on a vulgarity laden rant.

Actually, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on this one. If I was there, and it really bothered me, I'd go out in the hallway until it's over.

For those of you interested in the spirit of the law:

[lizinva]

Why not look at this as an opportunity to learn about another persons faith? I have been to many churches while attending friends weddings, baptisms, I even went to a Bris.

Why are people so uptight about a faith they know nothing about? No one is asking you to convert

[curzon_dax]

Originally Posted by convextech

Pot, meet kettle.

I can't say I disagree with the point that you make. I am indeed showing an intolerance for Wicca here, but I make a distinction between myself and those who wish to stop others from privately practicing the religion of their choice. When I refer to legitimate bigots, I refer to people who pass or support laws that deliberately try to manipulate government policy into supporting its people unequally. Especially when they are doing it out of hateful reasons.

I see the invocation as an inappropriate inclusion to the public event. As some commentators have noted, this is an all or nothing ordeal. My vote is nothing, as I see that as the only tenable defense of not only my faith but the faith of everybody else in my community. I don't agree that a government should compel its people to adhere to a state sponsored religion. It is not possible to let one religion lead a prayer without it conflicting with at least some of the beliefs of the people in a dynamic community such as ours. Therefore letting somebody lead an invocation is inappropriate in the public setting.

Originally Posted by Christinerica

I only hope that every religious deity has a spokesperson start the meetings. The wiccians have as much right to speak at a public forum as does a christian.

I am enjoying the fundies go crazy here in Alabamastan, but wait there is more....when a gay marriage case reaches the court system and gay marriage is legalized in Alabamastan (which will happen) there will be a mass die off of ignorance. Will we see desperate "pastors" jumping off buildings in Birmingham?...staye tuned, for the worm has turned.

You're right that under current law and its interpretations that the Wiccans have the right to speak. I do believe that the law was broken. I simply believe that our law is flawed and I was upset by the Supreme Court's ruling sectarian prayer during public meetings. I was very disappointed that they didn't see this coming, and I'm even more disappointed that it is happening here in Huntsville - as if "Alabamastan" needs more bad press on its social issues.

Originally Posted by Christinerica

Why does an "invocation" have to have anything to do with a deity? Couldn't one speak of the goodness of man and the hope that by allowing all to have a voice in Gov, we all would be better off? Why say words to an empty heaven with a do-nothing deity?

We could argue the meaning of invocation here, but I would like to point out that traditionally the act of invocation does include an appeal to one's higher power. If we could just do away with the higher power part of this like I am suggesting then there would be no problem, and we probably wouldn't call it an invocation anymore.

Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst

The problem with the city is the same as what is happening here.
'Uncomfortable with a witch' - Wiccans are not witches- some are, but to be Wiccan is to be Wiccan, not a witch. Wicca is a religion, witchcraft is not a religion, it is a way or life.
'Who believe in nothing...pray to'. Again, Wiccans do have something they believe in. Rather than a single divine male supreme being, there is both male and female.

Issue here is ignorance.

I take issue with this. There is no authority that gets to say what Wicca is or is not. If there were still a pontifex maximus, and he decided on the proper nouns and titles of adherents then you might have a case. But there is not, and all we have to go on is the self professed ideologies of individual adherents. At the core of those there is the title "Wicca" which owes its etymology to witch/wizard so I can't see where it is inappropriate to refer to adherents as witches. All that aside, I don't think its fair to call people ignorant for not being familiar with the protocols of a minority religion.

Originally Posted by lizinva

Why not look at this as an opportunity to learn about another persons faith? I have been to many churches while attending friends weddings, baptisms, I even went to a Bris.

Why are people so uptight about a faith they know nothing about? No one is asking you to convert

This touches on an issue that I've thought of since my OP. A commentor on another site asked "How weak is your faith if it cannot withstand being exposed to another?". I don't think this topic or this board is the right place for me to detail my own personal struggle with questions like this and the others that come with it. However, I will say that this is probably the best counter I can think of to my argument. Maybe I personally should be tolerant enough of all other religions that I can remain steadfast in my own beliefs without regard to the state of the world around me. Even so, I am hesitant to withdraw from my belief that the affairs of the government should be held separately from the affairs of any religion.

[unlblkrubi]

Should be nothing to do with religion during city meetings. If you want your religious beliefs that fine but I don't want it in my business. Too many different faiths and non faiths so not every one will be happy. Just remember, if it weren't for religious beliefs there would be no wars.

[CoreLysium]

Originally Posted by unlblkrubi

...if it weren't for religious beliefs there would be no wars.

Because if it wasn't for religion we'd share natural resources?

I suppose Hitler was a very religious man. Or is the assumption that the non-religious Hitler's actions wouldn't bother us if we had no religion also?

I hadn't realized the bombing of Pearl Harbor was over a religious dispute.

So, what I'm really saying, is that's not a true statement.

[harry chickpea]

Could be worse...

(may be offensive to Christians)

I've always found "invocation" to be an odd word. It brings up images of poking a sleeping deity with a stick, while saying "Pay attention here!" NOT a good idea. "Entreat" is also strange, since it sounds like giving a dog a doggie biscuit as a reward, which doesn't work with higher powers. "Donald Trump, I will give you a DONUT! if you listen to us." I don't think so. "Supplication" is just begging and whinging on an institutional level.

Perhaps if all public meetings were prefaced with a requirement of stripping of shirts and self-flagellation more would get accomplished and fewer capricious laws passed. "I really would like to have the city demand homeowners plant roses in the front of their houses, but I just just can't justify it enough to flagellate publicly.

"Dear Lord, please do a better job protecting us believers from tornadoes. You seem to be underachieving there. However, we are too stupid to know what your intent is, so please don't be offended when we wonder why your holy tornadoes strike our churches. On second thought, please ignore this invocation for this meeting, we don't need a tornado right now. Amen."

If a person was Wikkan, would Julian Assange be a priest?