Madison Square Mall sold (Huntsville, Decatur: lease, home, buy)

[Tourian]

Originally Posted by TN2HSV

So you think the city of HSV had it in for MSM? They wanted it to fail?

No, but they decided once it had passed its prime and the point of no return that they were going to do all they could to help the newer, fresher, sexier BS.

Maybe some more will come out later, but Cabela's looked at the spot but were convinced to go elsewhere. Since CBL did not have the money to totally redo the mall it became a slowly sinking ship.

[Dirt Grinder]

Originally Posted by Dustin Wehut

Can't argue with that. However, I think the outdoor trend is a fad...

Yeah, strip malls never existed in the past .

[preguntas]

Originally Posted by TN2HSV

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Your scenario applies to neither MSM or HH in Nasvhille. The jobs in HSV are still in the same place....Research Park, which is adjacent TO MSM. If not for the traffic from daytime "run over to the mall & pick up something" during lunch hours, MSM probably wouldn't have lasted as long as it has. So you can't blame its demise on people/money/jobs moving because they are in the same place they've always been....quite literally, next door.

HH can't blame it on people/jobs moving either. Antioch is in pretty close proximity to the Nashville airport and there are a lot of business parks in that area as well. The problem is the types of people who started hanging out there & the stuff happening in the parking lot, etc.

And not all indoor malls have a lifespan....some develop & grow and keep up with the times and thrive. The 2 that come to mind are Green Hills mall in Nashville and Lenox Square in Atlanta.

You can add Brookwood Village in Birmingham to the list. It is in its 41st year and going through its third and possibly most dramatic reconfiguration. And in the shadow of the Summit at that. Even losing Gus Mayer to the Summit a few years ago. Some of the more popular stores like Z Gallerie are reopening in more visible locations.
The three have a lot in common. All are in central locations in their cities instead of the far flung suburbs. They are all surrounded by strong dense business districts. (Green Hills and Brookwood also have dense very upscale residential as well)

In spite of a recent remodel, I would say that Lenox is the only one showing some danger signs. It is taking on such an urban identity that it is losing a lot of the clientele that they have always sought. Hence the building of Buckhead Atlanta and its taking some top line stores from both Lenox and Phipps. It also lost a lot of residential years ago. (partially due to GA 400)

At any rate when we compare malls of the past few decades, the ones that are better than ever do seem to have these things in common.

[ToneyTiger]

Originally Posted by TN2HSV

I agree with this. It's the "new" thing that gets people excited. Everything in the "old days" was open air, mom & pop, walk up & down the street to shop. We got away from that with enclosed malls...that took care of weather-related issues, etc. Now the trend is to go BACK to open air, but instead of walking up & down real streets with real stores, we walk up & down made-up streets with chain stores.

It's also the maintenance costs...... Compare the costs of heating, cooling, cleaning, painting, and lighting the main concourses in a mall to the cost of a bit of landscaping, a few streetlamps, and a fountain or 2..... Now do you see why "the old days" are back???? It's always about money......

[TN2HSV]

Originally Posted by preguntas

You can add Brookwood Village in Birmingham to the list. It is in its 41st year and going through its third and possibly most dramatic reconfiguration. And in the shadow of the Summit at that. Even losing Gus Mayer to the Summit a few years ago. Some of the more popular stores like Z Gallerie are reopening in more visible locations.
The three have a lot in common. All are in central locations in their cities instead of the far flung suburbs. They are all surrounded by strong dense business districts. (Green Hills and Brookwood also have dense very upscale residential as well)

In spite of a recent remodel, I would say that Lenox is the only one showing some danger signs. It is taking on such an urban identity that it is losing a lot of the clientele that they have always sought. Hence the building of Buckhead Atlanta and its taking some top line stores from both Lenox and Phipps. It also lost a lot of residential years ago. (partially due to GA 400)

At any rate when we compare malls of the past few decades, the ones that are better than ever do seem to have these things in common.

I'll admit, it's been a few years since I've been to Lenox & Phipps Plaza, but I went there ALL the time when I lived in GA. After the Lenox area, I guess I'd have to put Perimeter mall next in the hierarchy of ATL shopping. I'm sure it was once out in the 'burbs, but not anymore.

How is Phipps Plaza doing? Other than the fantastic Santa at Christmas, I never got into the feel of Phipps....I always preferred Lenox.

[David1502]

Originally Posted by preguntas

You can add Brookwood Village in Birmingham to the list. It is in its 41st year and going through its third and possibly most dramatic reconfiguration. And in the shadow of the Summit at that. Even losing Gus Mayer to the Summit a few years ago. Some of the more popular stores like Z Gallerie are reopening in more visible locations.
The three have a lot in common. All are in central locations in their cities instead of the far flung suburbs. They are all surrounded by strong dense business districts. (Green Hills and Brookwood also have dense very upscale residential as well)

In spite of a recent remodel, I would say that Lenox is the only one showing some danger signs. It is taking on such an urban identity that it is losing a lot of the clientele that they have always sought. Hence the building of Buckhead Atlanta and its taking some top line stores from both Lenox and Phipps. It also lost a lot of residential years ago. (partially due to GA 400)

At any rate when we compare malls of the past few decades, the ones that are better than ever do seem to have these things in common.

The main reason any mall is able to make it in the long run depends on the household income of the area it serves and if the store mix is appealing to the shoppers. The reason that most of the malls which have closed have to do with either changing demographics in the nearby area which leads to a lower median household income and second after that, increased competition which offers stores and an environment more appealing to shoppers.

Case study: Century Plaza and Eastwood Malls in Birmingham: the eastern side of Birmingham/Irondale was a middle class area (mostly white) with a very affluent area, Mountain Brook very close by. In fact the Parisian store at Eastwood catered to the Mountain Brook shopper. However, the demographics in the area began to change and the wealthy Mountain Brook shoppers had new better options. First, with Brookwood Village which had the upscale Gus Mayer, and later with The Summit. There was no way that Century Plaza and Eastwood could make it and thus a Wal-Mart replaced the Eastwood Mall.

Hickory Mall in the Nashville market. When HH opened, it was one of two large indoor malls in the Nashville area (the other being Rivergate in Goodlettsville). Therefore, it had the south side of market all to its self. However, it was in a working class area (Antioch) and not convenient to the more affluent neighborhoods west of I-65. In the mid to late 1980's Green Hills Village Shopping Center which had been built in the 1950's (and looked like it, too), became the upscale The Mall at Green Hills and now the affluent shoppers west of I-65 had a great shopping destination in their own backyard. In the meantime, the apartments in the Antioch area near Hickory Hollow were getting older, rents were falling and a lower income population was moving in. There was no way that HH could face such headwinds and then suffered a slow death.

Fast forward to Huntsville. When Madison Square opened in 1984, Parkway Place (called Parkway City MAll then) was a small one story mall with a one story Parisian, Montgomery Ward and a Pizitz - MS was the giant compared to that. In the 1990's CBL realized that the affluent Southeast part of HSV was underserved and rebuilt Parkway City into the upscale Parkway Place and was able to attract high end retailers like Pottery Barn and Williams Sonoma and have Ann Taylor relocate from MS to PP. At this point the affluent shoppers in the Southeast had no reason to go to MS, other than to go to Sears for tools and appliances. At the same time, the apartments around MS were getting older (Rhine Village as an example) and attracting a lower income population. The death blow was the opening of Bridge Street which offered a more attractive setting which was more appealing to the affluent Madison shoppers.

Now, It looks like Sears and JC Penney will move to Town Madison (or possibly Parkside Center where Cabella's is being built). Wherever they move, they will probably build smaller stores than they have already. Town Madison will be ideal because they will be able to draw from the whole HSV metro area including Decatur with the interchange which Louis Breland (the owner) is going to build. Town Madison will make retailers salivate because of the high income demographics nearby which are underserved - (Mountain Brook of Madison, Edgewater, The Reserve and Lake Forest) and don't have a Home Depot or Lowe's with in 5 miles.

Regarding your comment about Lenox Square going down - I just don't see it. First of all, Buckhead Atlanta is on a smaller scale than what was originally proposed and they don't have room to take in all of the high end stores located at both Lenox and Phipps Plaza. Over time, Lenox has become more high end especially with the wing towards Neiman Marcus (can we say Cartier?) and Neiman Marcus isn't going anywhere.

Bottom line: Malls which are located near affluent shoppers and offer the higher end stores they like will continue to make it regardless of the trends toward outdoor lifestyle centers like Bridge Street. The structure (indoor or outdoor) doesn't matter - it's the income of the shoppers and the stores that count.

[JuanHunt]

Just use the internet. I havent been to a mall in years, except to the theaters and occasionally a restaurant.

[Dustin Wehut]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Just use the internet. I havent been to a mall in years, except to the theaters and occasionally a restaurant.

That is the smartest thing I've heard here. I shop at Amazon and go eat at Bridge Street. Sometimes I can afford the Brazillian steak house...yummy!

[Southlander]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Just use the internet. I havent been to a mall in years, except to the theaters and occasionally a restaurant.

Why do you even go to a theater? You can stream stuff.
And there are services to deliver restaurant food.
Why go anywhere?

[Southlander]

Originally Posted by ToneyTiger

It's also the maintenance costs...... Compare the costs of heating, cooling, cleaning, painting, and lighting the main concourses in a mall to the cost of a bit of landscaping, a few streetlamps, and a fountain or 2..... Now do you see why "the old days" are back???? It's always about money......

True, but eventually people will tire of having to run from store to store in the rain/cold winds/blistering sun, and the cycle will turn again.

I hate Bridge Street with a passion. You can't even park close to your chosen store.