02-08-2010, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Charles
..... Kids are "indoctrinated" by their parents like little robots parroting what they hear on Sundays.
Who does the "indoctrinating" of your children?
02-08-2010, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chj
what is the difference in the non religious people who "indoctrinate" there children like robots into thinking there is no god? people raise their children in ways that they feel is right and religion is one of the things that is taught whether it is right or wrong does not mean that they are brainwashing them into thinking like mindless robots. I could say the same thing about non religious people who teach their children there is no god and pound it into their head that it is the truth.
Right or wrong, its still indoctrination - despite the negative connotation of the word, its what all parents are doing in some manner.
Charles is merely pointing out the fact that such parents are passing on what someone tells them in church.
I've never known atheist/agnostic families to teach that there is no God. Atheism, on its own, isn't a doctrine and you'll find many different belief systems held by atheists - they're simply based on something other than the supernatural. As an atheist (the kind for whom agnostic is a sissy word used to avoid being abrassive to theists), I still say teaching that there is no God makes little sense. You can't teach what is not; you cannot prove that something does not exist from its absence. I like to say, nothing is, until it is.
"Now, little Johnny, remember that there are 7 continents: Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, and South America. Whallawhalla-be-whatever, that's not a continent Johnny. There is no Whallawhalla-be-whatever." -just doesn't make much sense.
My kids will be indoctrinated with a heavy dose of skepticism, logic, reasoning, and the importance of careful observation. They will be taught that I don't have all the answers nor 100% locked-down conclusions - and that is just fine. Ideas are fluid things and the only thing that is important is the standard by which one determines what ideas should be accepted as our current best understanding.
So no, atheists do not teach that there is no God any more than we believe it is necessary to teach that there are no aliens, psychic powers, or magic. We teach such that the issue generally takes care of itself. We teach that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
But to each his own, and everyone has a right to pass on their beliefs and traditions as they see fit.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 02-09-2010 at 12:24 AM ..
02-09-2010, 12:10 AM
Location: Brewton, AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
DvlsAdvc8
Right or wrong, its still indoctrination.
Charles is merely pointing out the fact that such parents are passing on what someone tells them in church.
You have to have a doctrine in order to indoctrinate. I've never known atheist/agnostic families to teach that there is no God. As an atheist (the kind for whom agnostic is a sissy word used to avoid being abrassive to theists), I still say teaching that there is no God makes little sense. You can't teach what is not; you cannot prove that something does not exist from its absence. I like to say, nothing is, until it is.
My kids will be indoctrinated with a heavy dose of skepticism, logic, reasoning, and the importance of careful observation. They will be taught that I don't have 100% locked-down conclusions - that ideas are fluid things and the only thing that is important is the standard by which one determines what ideas should be accepted as our current best understanding.
So no, atheists do not teach that there is no God any more than we believe it is necessary to teach that there are no aliens, psychic powers, or magic. We teach such that there's no reason to believe there is a God.
We teach that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
But to each his own.
I am only pointing out that just because they teach their children about god does not mean they are indoctrinating them. I believe in god, but, I have cousins and friends who have went to church about as much as I have and they are skeptical about it. While I agree that some people do force their beliefs on their children the majority of people that go to church do not and to say that they are indoctrinated like little robots is wrong. while atheists can claim that they don't have a doctrine it is wrong. they believe in how everything evolved, the big bang theory, and etc... that is their doctrine. just because they may not have a religious book and have a belief in god does not mean that they do not have a belief in how we got here. I believe in god and atheists believe in evolution. while people can call it what they want evolution is a belief in a certain type of creation just as christianity, judaism, islam and etc.... is a belief in another type of creation.
02-09-2010, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
doc1
Who does the "indoctrinating" of your children?
TV, just like everyone else's. j/k
02-09-2010, 12:26 AM
Location: Brewton, AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
DvlsAdvc8
TV, just like everyone else's. j/k
thats the truth. lol
02-09-2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chj
I am only pointing out that just because they teach their children about god does not mean they are indoctrinating them. I believe in god, but, I have cousins and friends who have went to church about as much as I have and they are skeptical about it. While I agree that some people do force their beliefs on their children the majority of people that go to church do not and to say that they are indoctrinated like little robots is wrong. while atheists can claim that they don't have a doctrine it is wrong. they believe in how everything evolved, the big bang theory, and etc... that is their doctrine. just because they may not have a religious book and have a belief in god does not mean that they do not have a belief in how we got here. I believe in god and atheists believe in evolution. while people can call it what they want evolution is a belief in a certain type of creation just as christianity, judaism, islam and etc.... is a belief in another type of creation.
Well, I understand where you're coming from, but its still indoctrination. Its unlikely the individual would come to the same conclusions - God - without it being presented to them. Spiritual? Possibly, but God, probably not. It took 30,000 years for man to arrive at this particular set of Gods after having disposed of many others along the way.
We all do it. I assume that my way of thinking, my process, my doctrine if you will, is the best way to arrive at reliable truth. I'm right, here's my understanding and its justification; attack it, argue another view, but bring your evidence. The approach is the assumption. This is the way most atheists teach their children (read - indoctrinate) to think - and in so doing, its unlikely they'll consider the existence of God to be a reasonable proposition; no more than any other mythology.
I've always thought a key difference was this:
The theist is never wrong... ever... because belief is self-reinforcing and has a remarkable ability to adjust as needed. That kind of reliability is kind of nice in a way. It's very steady, comfortable and reassuring. If you believe something with no standard for determining its truth - that is, if you take something on faith - and that something is an assertion that can never be disproven - you can never be wrong.
The atheist is wrong all the time, at least those of my sort. What we accept as truth is understood to be a work in progress - a temporary construct of understanding, not divine law handed down on us. Being shown to be incorrect is a wonderful thing because it allows us to stop going down the wrong path and creates the opportunity to find the right one... two steps forward, one step back. There's a marketplace of ideas all vying for a spot and he who hath the best evidence wins... for now. It's kind of nice in its own way.
Then there are the folks that find some happy medium. It's all good. I like everyone until they try to make me be like them.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 02-09-2010 at 01:01 AM ..
02-09-2010, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chj
I believe in god and atheists believe in evolution.
This isn't the forum for a more extensive discussion of the difference, but suffice to say its not that simple.
Evolutionists (many of whom still believe in God, they are not mutually exclusive) do not believe in evolution in the same manner that you believe in God. It is not taken on faith.
But any going any further would be going too far off topic for this thread.
02-09-2010, 07:11 AM
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Thanks Dvlsadvc8.. You are right if you want to discuss religion or atheist beliefs you can do so in that forum.
02-09-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chj
what is the difference in the non religious people who "indoctrinate" there children like robots into thinking there is no god? people raise their children in ways that they feel is right and religion is one of the things that is taught whether it is right or wrong does not mean that they are brainwashing them into thinking like mindless robots. I could say the same thing about non religious people who teach their children there is no god and pound it into their head that it is the truth.
My experience as a non-believer is that you have to tread lightly with what you teach your children in a very religious place like Huntsville. If you want your children to fit in and you don't subscribe to the beliefs of a particular church, they need to be respectful of others beliefs. I don't think Baptists (for example, not picking on them) have that same concern. They are in the majority in their beliefs. They can alienate themselves from all that don't believe what they do and still fit into the mainstream of the local culture. That is a huge difference. I don't teach my child that "Christianity is wrong", the bible stories are not real... I'll let her decide what she believes later when she is more mature. I've never met a Christian with that attitude towards faith.
02-09-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chj
While I agree that some people do force their beliefs on their children the majority of people that go to church do not and to say that they are indoctrinated like little robots is wrong.
One little 7-yr-old girl told my stepdaughter that she was going straight to Hell because she had said "a bad word" and that God hates sinners. I'd say the indoctrination was complete
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Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)