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OP said specifically there is no HOA. However, there can still be covenants and an Architectural Committee, which is what he is running in to. That is what I have, we also insisted on a home where there was no HOA, I have seen and heard too many horror stories. The ACC and covenants are typically established when the subdivision is created. This sounds like he has a neighbor who is being a jerk.
Absolutely..... we've all gotten along great for 5 years. Then something happened and suddenly we start getting these letters. We are clueless as to why, and I approached them with a copy of the letter in friendly conversation to see if he would tell me anything. The letter was very specific to things that only he could see. Nothing that's visible from the street.
The only thing that he made mention of during that conversation was that our camper (which he has clearly said when we moved in was no issue for them, and he didn't mention CC&Rs then) was in violation, and that back in the 90s when the ACC lived here, he got letters for having his boat in his driveway and that we might get one at some point. He was slightly short and blunt about that, almost as if he was annoyed that he received a letter once and we hadn't. After that point and with how he responded, we just stopped talking to them altogether because we felt that something was slightly off.
Since that time they've stopped mowing the lawn (haven't mowed their strip between our houses since March), started staking out to install a cattle fence in their back yard (that they know is against the restrictions), etc.... all with what looks like an intent to provoke us to say anything. We won't, and I think the lack of a reaction has driven him mad. We've never told them point blank that we know they did it, but we think they have figured out that we know by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver
Your realtor should have known about this, first and foremost. He/she AND the closing attorney fell down on their jobs. If the HOA restrictions were filed with probate, the title company should have furnished those.
So I would direct my ire towards them first. At the very least, your closing attorney should be making amends by helping you with the paperwork.
I would go around and photograph other, similar changes to the properties of other homes in your subdivision and make your case at the next HOA meeting. At the very least, you might be able to get them to back off due to their lax and spotty enforcement.
The realtor called me last week slightly upset. He was unaware, as the selling realtor (who sells every house here) does not mention anything in any of the MLS listings on this street (one single street in the middle of the country with less than 20 homes on it).
We still have all of our closing paperwork and there is no mention of the restrictions aside from the blurb that says "subject to any easements or restrictions of record". When i asked about that blurb before signing, the attorney said that's standard protocol and there was no restrictive covenants furnished, therefore there weren't any. The closing attorney hasn't offered any help with this. To add, we have pulled the deed of every home here. Some mention "subject to easements and restrictions of record", only 1 actually lists the book and page where the restrictions are filed, and others make zero mention of anything at all. They're not consistent.
I have photographed and prepared quite the list of everything currently going on, along with photos available on Google Maps that also show the same violations from other homes and previous owners from the street view, dating as far back as 2008.
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Originally Posted by nalabama
This is probably a situation where the developer still has control of the covenants and variances thereto, and is unwilling to turn control over to the residents. If so, and others have violated the covenants without consequence, it is likely the developer will have little recourse to effect any removal of the offending structures due to the developer’s previous forbearance. Lawyer letter could possibly put an end to the problem.
Correct. The ACC were the developers. They moved out in 1997 but retained control of the neighborhood. No one has ever tried to vote them out or change anything because they never come out here. None of the new neighbors even knew how to get in contact with them. It took me going through the probate to find their home address. They refuse to provide any emails, phone numbers, etc.. to anyone that wants to request a waiver, ask questions, etc... Only the original owners that are still here can contact them (there are only 3-4 left).
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
It won't help in your situation, but such nonsense is averted up front by paying for a title search and title insurance, and getting a survey. Asking a Realtor and getting an opinion means zip. Getting a verbal opinion from an attorney is worth only the paper it isn't printed on. In short, full due diligence is what protects against such situations.
You have run up against the classic "neighbor from hell" adversary, apparently, one with deep pockets. The question is always "Why?" Is the neighbor looking to make you exit and buy your property, is there a pizzing match?, Did you offend?
There are stratagems to fight, such as countersuits, the hammer from above through connections, ramping up "legal" nuisances to irritate, and there is moving.
It may not work in Alabama, but in Florida when a HOA doesn't meet or enforce over a period of time, it is considered dissolved, and reference made to that in deeds. It was somewhat common for developers to set up such entities as part of the development scheme, and then to abandon them or turn them over to homeowners who didn't care enough to follow the legal requirements. If your attorney can show an abandonment (with support from your neighbors, and preferably as a class action) the restriction may go away. A second course would be to sue the ACC for NON-enforcement, and claim damages to property values in excess of the current suits.
The question of why is the million dollar question, and one that we would sincerely like an answer to. But trying to ask him at this point likely won't work. I don't know that we can remain civil since he has cost us money, and I don't know that he has enough of a spine to tell us the truth anyhow. I have cameras all the way around my home, and any time I start pulling up my driveway or walk outside, he bolts for the door and goes inside. He nor his wife will come outside if we are out there. Prior to all of this, any time we came out he would stop us to chat for an hour. It's a complete night and day difference.
We've heard from folks that know him, who are here doing some of the reno work that we are the 9th owner of this house since 1992. All say the same thing. Great neighbor at first, and then something changes and suddenly they start the shenanigans. This neighbor has a non-running vehicle in their yard, doesn't maintain their yard, has a junk pile behind their garage with no fence (that we have to see daily), unapproved animals on the property, etc... He breaks more of the restrictive covenants than any other neighbor. He doesn't work, and never really has according to the other neighbors. None of this is costing him anything and he really doesn't have deep pockets. It's just a phone call for him. He doesn't want to be bound to the restrictions, but he wants everyone else to comply.
The sad thing is, we could have easily worked out whatever was bothering him with a simple conversation. We can't resolve something that we aren't aware of. We're easy to get along with, and we don't bother anyone. I've been called over a million times to fix things for them, help load/unload furniture, etc... I've done it every time with no problem as part of being a good neighbor. AFTER he notified the ACC, he had me over to help him install new faucets in a bathroom and we laughed and talked like always. Nothing seemed amiss.
What we figured out by looking at the dates and talking to other neighbors, was that he was baiting us for information to use against us. He was asking questions that day, because I told him we were submitting a proposal to the committee to get approval for some work we wanted to do. Also to explain our situation in not knowing about a current violation and asking for a waiver to keep it in place since the neighbor that it would impact agreed to it. The very next day, prior to mailing out the proposal letter, we get a cease and desist letter from the attorney's courier. and everything started. Everything we were had in the proposal was in this letter that we had not yet sent.
One thing in general was that our fence on the opposite side of our yard is taller than the restriction allows. We weren't aware of that when it was installed, but we had a taller fence installed when it was replaced because we have a pool and the opposite neighbors can see folks swimming in it with a 6' fence. An 8' fence solved that issue, and that neighbor actually liked the idea because it cut down on more noise from the kids splashing back there. No one knew how tall that fence was but us. The neighbor that adjoins that fence wasn't even aware of restrictions until I took them a copy. They are as upset as we are, because he planned to build a carport for his vehicles. The nosy neighbor was the ONLY person we ever told the height of the fence, and the specific height was called out in that letter.
I am hoping that dissolution is the case here. We shall see what options we have tomorrow.
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Originally Posted by johnsonkk
Someone is paying the attorney to write or cite the violations and without an HOA, who is funding this operation? Again, lots can be determined from the numerous tickets; what is being cited, what authority, where the appeals can be filed? Without any of this, now it’s a neighborhood scam or bluff.
OP, Please let us know what your attorney says.
The ACC (husband and wife) is paying the attorney. We can't figure out why either.... they have no vested interest in any property out here. But, they have rather deep pockets and the wife comes across as one that likes to control things for the sake of being able to. There are no tickets, no citations, etc... The restrictions explain how to remove the committee or to make updates, so that is the route we are going. Case in point, we have submitted two proposals that would help get us into compliance, but would require them to grant a waiver on one or two items that we cannot physically change without great cost to us. The first was prior to attorneys and was denied within 2 days. That's when we got the copy of the old restrictions. We sent a second proposal that would require us to spend extra money to get closer to compliance. The attorney on both sides said that our request for approval was more than reasonable, and they thought there should be no issue getting the waiver and putting this whole thing to bed. The same day that the attorney presented the proposal, the wife denied it on the spot saying that we had to meet them to the letter. No waivers or approvals would be granted otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhisent
At one of our homes, the ACC was pretty active as the subdivision started up. They were to approve all house plans so they met minimum square footage, etc. But they failed pretty badly, one owner built a home and never finished all the interior, so the actual square footage was lower than the rules, but nothing was ever done. My next door neighbor even failed to put in a sidewalk (on a corner lot) as required, his was the only home in the subdivision without one, again nothing done. But I'm not sure anyone actually raised these issues legally.
At a different home, a neighbor actually dragged in a house trailer! onto his lot, his plan being to fix it up for his son and move it. The ACC (which was the developer) organized a neighborhood meeting, and an agreement was reached that it be moved out by a particular time, peacefully settled with a handshake.
So again, I think either your neighbor is a jerk, or you did something to tick him off...
I see why some folks want an active HOA, but I have heard too many horror stories, so like the OP I have stayed clear of them.
Our main issues with the whole thing aside from the nosy neighbor is that A) Knowing about these CC&Rs would have changed our decision to buy the house. We would have looked elsewhere. B) When we finally did find out, we tried to comply from that point forward and made updates based on what they sent us. Now they want us to undo the things we did that met those criteria because they made a mistake and sent us the wrong copy. We've spent over $10k on exterior improvements that they now determined don't meet the guidelines in the new restrictions.
Sadly, we are about $60k into a renovation and we have spent the past 5 years (and probably another $30k bringing this property back into the condition it's in now, so we aren't really willing to give up and move at this point. We're going to have to try to fight it.
OK, I'm going to speculate here. NOTHING I am about to say is anything but speculation, and it may be entirely wrong.
That you are the 9th owner of the house in such a short period of time raises one red flag. That there is only one realtor who sells every house in that development raises another red flag. That the same realtor did not disclose -upon request, and with full knowledge, as evidenced by other documents - not only raises a red flag, but may be grounds for investigation and revocation of their license.
I suspect that this could be a case of churning. If a realtor can get a regular commission on the same house, primarily because of two other factors, there is incentive for "favors" to make that happen. Proving same may be difficult.
In your shoes, I would be hiring a private eye to work up dossiers on the three parties, in addition to all legal pressure possible on that selling realtor. If what you state is accurate, there is a smell of rotten fish.
Again, the above is speculation. Understand that part of my work involved digging out crooked employees, and I have a cynical outlook on some things.
OK, I'm going to speculate here. NOTHING I am about to say is anything but speculation, and it may be entirely wrong.
That you are the 9th owner of the house in such a short period of time raises one red flag. That there is only one realtor who sells every house in that development raises another red flag. That the same realtor did not disclose -upon request, and with full knowledge, as evidenced by other documents - not only raises a red flag, but may be grounds for investigation and revocation of their license.
I suspect that this could be a case of churning. If a realtor can get a regular commission on the same house, primarily because of two other factors, there is incentive for "favors" to make that happen. Proving same may be difficult.
In your shoes, I would be hiring a private eye to work up dossiers on the three parties, in addition to all legal pressure possible on that selling realtor. If what you state is accurate, there is a smell of rotten fish.
Again, the above is speculation. Understand that part of my work involved digging out crooked employees, and I have a cynical outlook on some things.
You speculation is a reasonable explanation of the goings on.
I don't have any problems with HOAs - I live in an HOA neighborhood, and they keep things looking neat and home values up. But a person buying into such a neighborhood has to be told upfront so they can decided if that's what they want.
Is it possible to ask the previous owners their $0.02? They might start talking if there have been that many years since you’ve owned the place regarding crazy neighbors.
What is the validity of the AAC’s? You said there were old ones, new ones, doesn’t one supersede the previous version? And aren’t these recorded at the Huntsville county along with recorded deeds? AACs can’t be unregistered, just papers that are pulled out of a closet.
Looks like we’re all pulling for you on this issue. Appreciate your lengthy replies and feedback.
OK, I'm going to speculate here. NOTHING I am about to say is anything but speculation, and it may be entirely wrong.
That you are the 9th owner of the house in such a short period of time raises one red flag. That there is only one realtor who sells every house in that development raises another red flag. That the same realtor did not disclose -upon request, and with full knowledge, as evidenced by other documents - not only raises a red flag, but may be grounds for investigation and revocation of their license.
I suspect that this could be a case of churning. If a realtor can get a regular commission on the same house, primarily because of two other factors, there is incentive for "favors" to make that happen. Proving same may be difficult.
In your shoes, I would be hiring a private eye to work up dossiers on the three parties, in addition to all legal pressure possible on that selling realtor. If what you state is accurate, there is a smell of rotten fish.
Again, the above is speculation. Understand that part of my work involved digging out crooked employees, and I have a cynical outlook on some things.
That's definitely a perspective that I had not considered before. I appreciate the insight. It's not impossible with the way things have been going, but it may be unlikely. Other realtors could sell these houses and one or two newer owners that have sold out have used different ones, but to date this specific realtor knows all of the older neighbors and since she sold the original lots and such and lives in the community, they tend to gravitate to using her. I think it may be an easy button since her track record shows her selling these houses in record time. Although, its the neighborhood and the location that sells out here, not the Realtor.
That being said, there may be a case on non-disclosure, because she is fully aware of the restrictive covenants on these properties. She sold the home that lists the restrictions on the deed, and the neighbor confirmed that she was at closing when they signed the documents. That one was sold back in 2008, and we purchased in 2016. She sold 6 more on this street between 2008 and 2016.
My speculation is that she knows most who are moving out here do not want restrictions and she knows that it might significantly reduce the buyer's pool if they were disclosed. I also speculate that maybe she is banking on a title search not returning any results so that the home can go to closing. It took the probate office 2-3 days to find the 1987 restrictions. They never told us about the 1989 version. I don't recall the details other than they didn't appear to be filed in the correct book, so they were being overlooked. We only recently found out about those after this second denial letter.
All of the other houses have only sold 1-2 times if that many. Our house in particular has sold the most, and the one opposite of this neighbor comes in a distant second, as being sold 4 times. I imagine it's because our two garage doors face each other and this is the side of the house that they stay on the most so they have more interactions with whomever lives on this side. They have a sunroom that they stay in, and they watch every time someone comes in and out and he used to bolt out the door to talk to us any time we came out of the garage. Nosy is a very mild way of putting it.
We have heard many "horror stories" over the years from them about how terrible all of the previous neighbors were. That should have been a red flag to us, but since my wife's father knew the guy we assumed he was fine. We've heard everything from one neighbor running a brothel here (disproven by other neighbors), to this owner threatening to fight one of the teenage boys one day over a trampoline getting moved, to infidelity, bankruptcy, etc... At the least we should have known that they were of the gossipy type. Lesson learned.
We have surveyors coming in the next few weeks to stake out the property line, and we plan to install a privacy fence between our houses to block their view. We hope this will settle him down a bit, because once we are done the only way he could see what we have is to come through our gate or climb on our fence. Both will be on our side of the property line with enough room for me to weed-eat without going over the line. He wouldn't be able to see anything that we have unless he trespassed.
Is it possible to ask the previous owners their $0.02? They might start talking if there have been that many years since you’ve owned the place regarding crazy neighbors.
What is the validity of the AAC’s? You said there were old ones, new ones, doesn’t one supersede the previous version? And aren’t these recorded at the Huntsville county along with recorded deeds? AACs can’t be unregistered, just papers that are pulled out of a closet.
Looks like we’re all pulling for you on this issue. Appreciate your lengthy replies and feedback.
The most recent owner still comes out here and sits with them to chat sometimes so I don't know if they would be much help. She sold out because her husband passed and it was too much for her to maintain. The previous owners moved out of state. We do have some info from other neighbors though, and none of it good. After this is settled I may try to locate the previous owners, but for now we don't want any word to get back to them that we are digging for info.
The 1987 restrictions are filed with the Probate, so they're valid. The 1989 version are also filed and stamped by the Probate, just extremely difficult to find for some reason..... However, there are no declarations of amendment on file that we can locate. The CC&Rs specifically say that within the first 25 years, ALL then owners of the neighborhood must approve of the changes and must be filed with the courthouse. The only documents we've ever found were these two sets of restrictions. Since they were changed 2 years later, I assume that for it to be valid, there has to be some sort of declaration of amendment somewhere otherwise they wouldn't be valid.
You speculation is a reasonable explanation of the goings on.
I don't have any problems with HOAs - I live in an HOA neighborhood, and they keep things looking neat and home values up. But a person buying into such a neighborhood has to be told upfront so they can decided if that's what they want.
This exactly. We don't necessarily have an issue with HOAs in general. They're just not what we wanted. We also don't have an issue with restrictive covenants as long as we are aware of what we are buying into.
The biggest issue for us was no RVs visible. We had an RV when we purchased this house and we wanted enough property to be able to store it on site at our home. It currently sits beside my detached garage, where we have paid to install a parking pad and run permanent power to it. We also paid to have a wing added to the driveway at the street to be able to back it up the driveway. All of this happened over the span of 2 years, and no one ever said a word. Prior to having the pad installed, it sat in our driveway next to the house. We asked the neighbor if they had any concerns with us parking it there, and they said not at all. No one in the neighborhood has ever said a word, and we had no clue.
The restriction says any RVs must be garaged out of sight from the street, or behind the dwelling and out of view of the street. In 1989, many RVs were small enough to fit into a garage. Our current model RV is 43' long and 13' tall. No chance of getting it in a house garage. Due to the location of the detached garage and our in ground pool, we cannot physically get it into the back yard.
When we found out about the restriction and the committee, we submitted a plan to build a large metal building behind the house that was large enough to store the RV inside. The plans were denied because it was metal. We were told that we had to build it out of brick, or not build it at all (detached is wood, not brick). It also had to be located 20' off the side lot lines, and 35' off the rear lot line. That would leave us with about a 20'x20' area to build it in. Our plans had it 7' off the side lot line, and 20' off the rear. The neighbors detached garage is only 8' off the side lot line next to us, so we didn't see any issues.
Mind you..... there is nothing behind us but woods. No neighbors. Beside that parking spot (and behind the neighbor's garage) is woods. You literally cannot see the RV with exception to when you drive directly in front of our driveway and the RV sits almost 100' off the street. You have to specifically be looking for it to see it. It is 5' behind the front wall of the detached garage, which is another 10' behind the house. But, because it's at the side of the house and not directly behind it, they won't budge.
The neighbors can't see it until they come out of their garage door and look back to the woodline.
I would fight it. Typically when something is not enforced consistently for an extended length of time (Usually around 10 years) it becomes unenforceable. That is also what harry chickpea is saying. It is basically contract law. If you don't enforce the contract consistently with everyone involved, the contract becomes void and unenforceable.
I would fight it. Typically when something is not enforced consistently for an extended length of time (Usually around 10 years) it becomes unenforceable. That is also what harry chickpea is saying. It is basically contract law. If you don't enforce the contract consistently with everyone involved, the contract becomes void and unenforceable.
That's 100% what we are hoping for.
We have accumulated so much documentation and evidence that we hope it's pretty cut and dry. Even better than that we hope that our attorney can convince their attorney that the right move is just to provide us with a waiver of all so called "violations" to make this go away. That solves the immediate threat for us.
After that, we are still going to petition to have them removed from the committee so that members of the neighborhood can vote new people in who live here, if they choose to keep the committee and CC&Rs in place. And this time, no spouses. 5 members (so that the odd number can be a tie-breaker), no one can be related to another member in any way, both new owners and old, and from one end of the street to the other, so that there is equal representation for all.
Obviously I'm not giving away too much right now because our attorney is still working this. However, he has drafted a very simple letter to their attorney that basically says we are in compliance as the RV sits behind the dwelling and that plans were not submitted for the gravel pad since it is not visible to the street nor is it part of the driveway. He also mentioned to them the errors that they made with providing us with the incorrect copy of the restrictions in their denial of our initial structure request.
He advised us not to make any changes. He did tell them that by reconsidering approval of our initial request for a new garage would resolve the issues. They're not likely to agree as they don't seem to want to work with us at all, so the hope is that we go to court so he can pick apart the selective enforcement issues in front of a judge.
We have had more than a few neighbors (thankfully) send us letters saying that they have no issues with anything we've done here and that we have gone above and beyond what others have done to try and comply with the rules. None have had any issues with our RV, so that is definitely a bonus for us.
And lastly... the nosy neighbor is continuing to let that strip of grass grow between our homes. The grass is now over 1 ft in the lowest areas and over 3ft in others.
I sent the neighbor a polite text last week asking if there were some issues that they had with us that they would like to address and try to resolve. They usually respond to texts quickly and read this one right away, but we're 7 days in with no response. I wanted written evidence that we have extended an offer to resolve them, even though we really don't care to ever speak to them again.
So, we continue to wait.
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