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..."My kid is X grade levels ahead" is what I hear...
And don't forget the line "my children were so ahead of the other students that they became bored and started getting in trouble." I came to this area from another country and had quite a time adjusting to the public school system here, but I managed to get through it psychologically intact (well, mostly LOL).
Public schooled kids actually have stunted growth because they socialize with kids their own age when it's not the norm all over the world. Variety is spice of life!
I completely disagree with this statement. Age is a hugely influential factor in developing confidence, leadership skills and initiative. Children's psychology research shows that children in groups not differentiated by age defer to the older children in the group and have an increased probability of having confidence issues and depression.
In terms everyone with two or more kids can relate to, this is similar to the case of the younger child who becomes frustrated and angry with themselves for being unable to accomplish something the older children do with ease. This same phenomenon is part of the reason first-born children tend to be so much more successful on average than other birth orders.
A pretty good case can be made for grouping children by age. On the other hand, there is no evidence whatsoever that children grouped by age are stunted in any way. I'd think its fairly obvious that curriculum that is beneficial to an 8 year old is not so to a 13 year old, and further, that moving a child to a more mature age group could be emotionally damaging. This has also been shown to be the case among children who skip grades and then find it difficult to adjust.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 01-21-2010 at 05:01 PM..
In terms everyone with two or more kids can relate to, this is similar to the case of the younger child who becomes frustrated and angry with themselves for being unable to accomplish something the older children do with ease. This same phenomenon is part of the reason first-born children tend to be so much more successful on average than other birth orders.
And only children are the most successful. So I guess families should be limited to one child since that would produce the most successful future.
The birth order theory is fine, but keep in mind that it depends on the child. My daughter(who went to "regular school" until Nov this year-third grade) is the somewhat socially awkward child, she gets that from her father. She likes to stand back and observe before engaging in a social situation, so does he(and he went through 12 years of public school). No amount of public school will change this, nor would I ever try. She does well once she is in a situation, and it is what makes her feel comfortable. My son, younger by 2-1/2 years, has tried harder, practiced more, and bettered himself to keep up with the older group. For this he has enjoyed many personal triumphs, he is also a very outgoing kid who I always say is my future politician. Good or bad, it is who they are.
So while the birth order theory may apply to some situations, it doesn't override the natural fact that we are all born with different personalities.
As for your theory of naive homeschooled children, I was a naive publicly educated child. I was shocked when I went into the real world and discovered the hatred that people have and the cut throat nature of the business world. It astounded me and I had never seen anything like it. It can happen with any education that you choose for your child. To avoid this should we turn all public schools into a cut throat world? encourage bullying to teach children how to deal?
And only children are the most successful. So I guess families should be limited to one child since that would produce the most successful future.
I certainly didn't say that. Birth order does in fact heavily predict academic and career success. It's a well established fact. Are there exceptions? Always! ...but in a discussion about outcomes on average - exceptions are irrelevant. Its not particularly helpful to examine ONE kid's outcome. I was born to a teenage mother. By all accounts I should be a high school drop out. I'm not, but I wouldn't exactly endorse my path based on my unique outcome. No one has a crystal ball, so we focus on and determine best that which proves to be best on average.
Again, children defer to the leadership and confidence of elder children. Being the eldest of a group of children has advantages (birth order was only tangential evidence, since age is not the sole determinant there, but an influencing factor). If that is true, than it must also be true that grouping children by age creates more advantaged children. In truth, its not age, but emotional maturity. Every parent thinks their kid is "special". Smarter; more mature; exceptions... of course, the numbers tell us otherwise. Most children mature at pretty much the same rate.
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Originally Posted by tammie2
To avoid this should we turn all public schools into a cut throat world? encourage bullying to teach children how to deal?
Oh no, we should shelter them from it such that the first time they encounter it is the first time they are independent and on their own.
People are people and kids have to learn to live with them; the good and the bad. IMO, if you want the best outcome, send your kid to school and continue their education when they come home. Academically, education shouldn't END at the school and was never intended to.
Socially, we learn from experience, and public school provides a more rich experience than homeschooling - from confrontation to cooperation to dating/relating to the opposite sex. This is a point I don't think can be argued.
I certainly didn't say that. Birth order does in fact heavily predict academic and career success. It's a well established fact. Are there exceptions? Always! ...but in a discussion about outcomes on average - exceptions are irrelevant. Its not particularly helpful to examine ONE kid's outcome. I was born to a teenage mother. By all accounts I should be a high school drop out. I'm not, but I wouldn't exactly endorse my path based on my unique outcome. No one has a crystal ball, so we focus on and determine best that which proves to be best on average.
This again should be a study about the parents, not the birth order or the conditions of birth. Add in that factor and your results would be much different. Just as the study with involved parents of public school vs homeschool, why aren't there studies on involved teen parents, involved single parents, etc.
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Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8
Every parent thinks their kid is "special". Smarter; more mature; exceptions... of course, the numbers tell us otherwise. Most children mature at pretty much the same rate.
This is another misnomer about how people work together in the real world vs school settings. At the charter school and at the homeschool center where my daughter attends classes, the kids in groups vary according to their abilities and interests rather than their ages, which is very similar to how things are structured in the workplace.
They have children with different strengths work together toward a common goal. This causes each child to succeed by working with someone else, or a group of people. This is likely exactly what you do at work each day.
As for every parent believing that their child is special, that is true, but maybe not in the same way that you might think having not hit that point in your life. My daughter is special because she is the most caring and giving individual I have ever met. She has wanted to be a vet or pedi since she was 4, I think she will be good at either because of her compassion. I also know that she will likely have to study harder than most to get there. She is smart, she just thinks different than most, making every issue more difficult than it really is. She is a visual/hands on learner who asks a ton of questions and needs examples or experiments to gain full understanding. Once she gets something, she has it for life, but it might take her longer than some to "get it." My son is special because of what he has had to overcome just to be "normal." Most parents are overjoyed and amazed with their child's first steps, I cried when he took his, tears of joy because I thought they would never come. He does happen to be very intelligent on an intellectual level(most children with CP are), however he doesn't apply himself half as much as my daughter, he would rather be outside playing and involved in sports than reading a book or learning, and I don't push. I talk to both of them, I encourage, I support their interests, but never push. They will be who they will be and I will be proud of them no matter what that is.
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Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8
Oh no, we should shelter them from it such that the first time they encounter it is the first time they are independent and on their own.
My point here was that it can happen in public school just as much as it can happen with a homeschool environment. I am living proof of that, I spent 4th-6th in catholic school due to an incompetent middle school, however, I spent 1-3 and 7-12 in public, still ended up with a skewed view of the world.
As a result I have spent a good deal of time attempting to educate my children on certain cynical aspects of people and our society. No one ever even mentioned what the real world was like when I was growing up, I really thought all people were genuinely good. My son's mixed ethnicity has been a point of discussion many times, we have talked about what he might face at some point in the future and what we may have to face as a family. I don't just bring it up out of nowhere, however there was a big issue when my son was in Pre-K, I had to give him a race label-something I had avoided up to that point. I actually chose to label him white. The school gave us a choice of what we were or to pick one part of what he really is, but we had to pick and it would stick throughout his school life. My daughter asked why it was such a big issue and ultimately why we made the decision that we made. I explained that I didn't want him to have unfair advantages or disadvantages because of some arbitrary measurement. I wanted him judged for who he was and what he accomplished, not something that was beyond his control. I explained that despite them coming from the same home that he would be judged differently than she would for college admissions and jobs. Another time someone told her that he wasn't really her brother because they looked different, we spoke again....and this didn't happen at school. Social learning experiences can be learned outside of school as much as inside of school.
Additionally, most homeschooled children aren't as sheltered as you might think. Homeschooled is a term, not a confinement to ones home and family. When done right, their lives are just as rich and full of just as many, if not more, social experiences outside the home.
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Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8
Socially, we learn from experience, and public school provides a more rich experience than homeschooling. A point I don't think can be argued.
I could argue this point all day, but you would still feel your way was best and I would still feel that it doesn't make much of a difference. My daughter started in a charter school and is now homeschooled, my son attends public school for now. I don't believe that either will be any more/less prepared to handle the real world than a child that attends public school for 12 years.
If you want my true core beliefs, I believe that all children should be given a choice of educational methods from several choices, explained the advantages and disadvantages of each. Children want to learn, they know how they learn best, and will pick what works for them. At this young of an age, they aren't trying to choose the easy way, they want to learn, if that becomes precident and they are required to take responsibility for their choices, they will continue to make good decisions through life. Prior to kindergarten, my daughter toured a private school, the public school, and the charter school, she picked the charter school. I asked why and she explained that she liked the projects, hands on, visual learning. OK, that makes sense...done. When we moved here, I went over her choices, we toured 2 private, 1 public, and one homeschool center. She picked public. Again I asked why, she wanted to go to school with her neighbors since she was new. OK, makes sense. done. I typically make them stick with their decision through the year, however extenuating circumstances caused us to change our minds this year and we started with options again. She picked the homeschool center because she wanted to be with me and heal emotionally after what she had been through with an emotionally abusive teacher, but she also loved that classes were offered with others through the center. OK, makes sense, done. Prior to 4th grade she will be allowed to change her mind again, but so far she is comfortable, so I don't believe she will. My son wanted to go to public school because they had PE every day, I know he needs this to be a productive learner(too much sitting time and he tunes out). OK, makes sense, done. Now that my daughter is homeschooling he thinks he might like to as well, however his reasoning isn't sound. It might end up that way just because of the health problems he has had since starting school, however, that won't be decided for a bit.
This again should be a study about the parents, not the birth order or the conditions of birth. Add in that factor and your results would be much different. Just as the study with involved parents of public school vs homeschool, why aren't there studies on involved teen parents, involved single parents, etc.
Birth order was just a minor piece of evidence in my argument for grouping children by age. A very minor piece.
Parental involvement wouldn't really change the factors that make birth order relevant to success would it? I don't know that this is worth studying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammie2
This is another misnomer about how people work together in the real world vs school settings. At the charter school and at the homeschool center where my daughter attends classes, the kids in groups vary according to their abilities and interests rather than their ages, which is very similar to how things are structured in the workplace.
If you noticed, in my last post I mentioned that its really emotional maturity that is relevant, not specifically age. Grouping children by age is an easy way of capturing a group of children at the same emotional maturity level. Of course, every parent thinks their kid is above the norm. In reality, very few are.
The workplace environment is not a good comparison. Adults are presumed to have reached an adult maturity level. It's not surprising to see them grouped by skills, and one wouldn't expect the secretary to lose self-confidence because she can't do the work of the accountant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammie2
As for every parent believing that their child is special, that is true, but maybe not in the same way that you might think having not hit that point in your life. My daughter is special because she is the most caring and giving individual I have ever met.
No problem, but I'm speaking in an objective sense. Being "more caring" would really be a subjective measure. Parent's should think their kids are special - they're special and important to them. But I see too many parents who think their kid is some kind of objective exception. Everyone's kid is not smarter than average, more mature than average etc etc... yet everyone seems to believe so. I tend to look at this as part of the homeschooler motivation. My kid can do better than public school. He'll get way ahead and then have better scores and get into a better college and get a better job. The evidence shows otherwise. The only kids the homeschooled kids are better than are the kids of parents who don't get involved in their child's education. Which is to say that the KIDS aren't really the issue... nor is homeschooling vs public schooling. Kids are mostly the same, with varying levels of parental interest in their education. In that sense, homeschoolers should be applauded - but no more so than involved parents of public schooled children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammie2
Social learning experiences can be learned outside of school as much as inside of school.
But what triggered this discussion? External pressures. External pressures that would not have been present outside of social interaction. "Someone called me a racial name/slur, why did they do that? What do I do? How do I keep it from hurting my feelings?" It's an experience and opportunity for parental guidance. I imagine such things happen far less often in the more strictly controlled environments (both in terms of parental control and being around like-minded people) homeschooled children find themselves in. Eventually, everyone must still face these sorts of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammie2
Additionally, most homeschooled children aren't as sheltered as you might think. Homeschooled is a term, not a confinement to ones home and family. When done right, their lives are just as rich and full of just as many, if not more, social experiences outside the home.
My nearest two neighbors both homeschool. I know what kind of socialization they get. The typically meet with other homeschoolers and participate in church activities and sports. I would call this a pretty limited, controlled and homogenous environment, for better or worse (depends on what you want your child to experience).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammie2
I could argue this point all day, but you would still feel your way was best and I would still feel that it doesn't make much of a difference.
The funny thing is my perspective is really the other way around. I find homeschoolers somewhat condescending on the issue, as I said - beating you over the head over some perceived advantage that doesn't exist.
I mostly feel that it doesn't make much of a difference. Which is the whole point of the research I posted. The only relevant issue is that parents involve themselves in their children's education - it doesn't begin and end at the school, nor begin and end at home.
I simply wanted to give voice to the fact that the academic advantage attributed to homeschooling is insignificant if one stays properly involved with a child in public school (as a parent considering homeschooling would likely be anyway). It is the school's job to education a child, but that doesn't mean (and was never intended to mean) the parent doesn't have a job to do when the child gets home.
Everyone's kid is not smarter than average, more mature than average etc etc... yet everyone seems to believe so. I tend to look at this as part of the homeschooler motivation. My kid can do better than public school. He'll get way ahead and then have better scores and get into a better college and get a better job.
While I've met a few homeschooling parents who think like this, I do not believe they are the majority. And for every person I know who is homeschooling their child because they believe their child is "gifted" I know another who is homeschooling because their child is delayed (socially or academically), has health issues, or has a learning disability.
Many homeschooled children are performing above grade level - usually far above grade level if done long term, but it has nothing to do with the population being more gifted or superior. It has to do with one-on-one-instruction and the fact that yes, public schools - including higher education - have been dumbed down, in an attempt to increase graduation rates. People coming out of our public school system are in some cases borderline illiterate and even those that do well often do not come out of school with a fundamental knowledge of geography, history, or the natural sciences.
There's a fairly large movement in homeschooling culture to return to "classic education", where parents provide their children with an education in Latin, classic literature, extensive geography, and in-depth history. This kind of education is simply not provided by the public school system. It has nothing to do with being superior, as this used to be the way *all* children were educated, and it's a valid choice to want to provide one's child with that kind of education. Still a whole other group of homeschoolers choose almost exactly the opposite - and by "unschooling" prefer to allow their children to learn being led by their own natural curiosity and interests. Something else that schools do not allow, and can also be a viable choice if done well.
In a nutshell the average homeschooler doesn't believe their child can do better because he or she is superior or special, but believes ALL children are capable of having more expected of them. Many parents with kids attending public school believe this as well, and must invest hours of time into extracurricular activities, supplemental reading, etc in order to provide their child with a well-rounded education, while still keeping up with the projects, standardized tests, etc that come with school. Most homeschooling families I know want to give their children a quality education while still having plenty of family time, and plenty of time for their kids to just be kids.
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I came to this area from another country and had quite a time adjusting to the public school system here, but I managed to get through it psychologically intact (well, mostly LOL).
