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Old 11-09-2013, 01:25 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBaker488 View Post
Maybe big, but certainly not intense or even significant meteorologically speaking. The fact that it hit the NorthEast is the why the storm got as much hype as it did. And I don't mean for a moment to discount in any way the loss of life or property damage here, but strictly in terms of weather it wasn't that significant.
It had the largest diameter of any Atlantic storm yet recorded. Its pressure tied the record for north of Cape Hatteras.
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Old 11-09-2013, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Rocky Mountain Xplorer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
It had the largest diameter of any Atlantic storm yet recorded. Its pressure tied the record for north of Cape Hatteras.
North of Cape Hatteras is mainly singles and doubles, the grand slams are on the south side. And diameter ? Nobody talked about that much until Sandy, up till then it was all wind velocity and barometric pressure. But Sandy was very
big in political terms.
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:45 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBaker488 View Post
North of Cape Hatteras is mainly singles and doubles, the grand slams are on the south side.
That's the point. It's hard to get a storm that big that far north. In fact, not for 70 years. It's silly to compare northern storms to southern standards. Though a 940 mb pressure would still be noteable in the south, almost as strong as Hurricane Ike, and a stronger landfalling pressure than Ike.

Quote:
And diameter ? Nobody talked about that much until Sandy, up till then it was all wind velocity and barometric pressure.
Still a noteworthy statistic. It's usually commented on. It's of interest for how much it will affect.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Near the Coast SWCT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBaker488 View Post
And diameter ? Nobody talked about that much until Sandy, up till then it was all wind velocity and barometric pressure.
I assume that was Sarcastic because I haven't followed the flow of the conversation.. Anyone who has followed weather knows that size and pressure is always talked about with storms.

Irene's size was the headlines everywhere. What other organized storm big in size have hit the Northeast? Some Nor'Easters are talked about in size and pressure but obviously Tropical systems are more impressive. Gloria's size in 1985 was being talked about.

Here's Irene:
NASA - Hurricane Season 2011: Hurricane Irene (Atlantic Ocean)

So, if Irene's rains were already affecting Washington, D.C., where was Irene's center at 11 a.m. EDT? It was about 50 miles (80 km) west of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina. Cape Hatteras is 328 miles southeast of Washington, D.C. That's quite a reach!

Minimum central pressure near 952 millibars. Irene's hurricane-force winds extend 90 miles from the center or 180 miles in diameter. Tropical-storm force winds extend out 260 miles from the center, making Irene about 520 miles in diameter.

These images cover more than 800 miles (1,300 kilometers) in the north-south direction, and are centered near 27 degrees North latitude, 75.5 degrees West longitude

Hurricane Irene after landfall at 8 a.m. in Cape Lookout, North Carolina on August 25, 2011 at 10:10 a.m. EDT. At that time Irene's outer bands had already extended into New England.

In an animation created at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. by the NASA/NOAA GOES Project, GOES-13 satellite imagery taken in 15 minute intervals from August 25 to August 27 at 9:40 a.m. EDT shows Hurricane Irene's massive reach



This is just 1. How about the NorEasters that are mentioned in size and pressure? Here's a comparison made of Sandy and a NorEaster. Right image is a NorEaster, not a hurricane.

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Old 11-10-2013, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Laurentia
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Sandy was a monster of a storm - the peak winds may have been much lower than Katrina, but they were over a much larger area and lasted a lot longer. Furthermore, the peak storm surge was huge by any metric, and spread over a much larger area than pretty much any Gulf Coast/Florida hurricane. I also don't recall any Gulf Coast hurricane covering a large area with snow, up to 3 feet deep in some places. At its maximum breadth effects of the storm were felt from Lake Superior to Newfoundland, a distance of almost 2000 miles. In addition, pressure records were smashed across a wide swath of the Northeast, i.e. it was the strongest low pressure system on record in the Northeast. It was a truly extraordinary meteorological event.

In terms of damage and impact it was extraordinary as well - Sandy caused $68 billion in damage, second only to Katrina, which means that if a storm similar to Sandy hit any time prior to 2005 it would have been the costliest hurricane on record anywhere in the Atlantic basin. That's not hype - that's the absolute top tier of Atlantic storms, and it deserved all the attention it received.

Sandy was fully extratropical by all accounts by the time it made landfall, and I'd argue it was more extratropical than tropical at the time it began it's "left hook". So I think Sandy taken as a whole event, despite its hybrid nature, bears a closer resemblance to a nor'easter on steroids than a hurricane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBaker488 View Post
Nobody talked about that much until Sandy, up till then it was all wind velocity and barometric pressure.
As Cambium said, the unusually large size of Irene was widely commented on, as was the large wind field of Hurricane Ike in 2008, which in Ike's case is what magnified the damage and storm surge far above a normal Category 2 hurricane. Hurricane Igor in 2010 had a gale-force diameter of 920 miles, which was a new record at the time, and that was noted in what coverage there was of the storm. Hurricane Sandy broke that record while making landfall in the United States.

As for size, it is a key component of measuring the intensity of a storm. I can think of no better example than 1957's Hurricane Audrey versus 2010's Hurricane Alex, both of which at 946 mb are tied for the most intense June hurricane on record. Despite that Audrey was a Cat 4 and Alex was only a Cat 2 - that's because Alex was a large hurricane and Audrey was a compact hurricane. Both made landfall in the Gulf of Mexico at peak intensity - Audrey (adjusted for inflation) caused $1.2 billion in damage, and Alex caused $1.8 billion. In every respect except wind speed and size they were pretty similar.

Sandy's was rated as a Category 1 when its pressure was 940 mb - this is slightly more intense than Hurricane Charley was when it was a Category 4 (941 mb). The key difference is size - Charley was quite compact, whereas Sandy was enormous. Sandy's large size was undountedly a key factor in quadrupling Charley's total damage figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ras124685 View Post
From your personal experience and which U.S. region is safer (north or south?) God bless you guys.
In recent years there has been a trend away from the Gulf Coast and towards the East Coast in terms of hurricane hits. I think this is a side effect of the open Atlantic being the center for hurricane activity since 2009, as opposed from 2004-2008 when activity was centered in the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean Sea. From 2009 to the present day, the East Coast has had two hurricanes, compared to just one for the Gulf Coast. From 2004-2008 (an equivalent period), the East Coast had no landfalls north of Florida (two close calls, though) but the Gulf Coast had ten. The recent pattern is not unprecedented, and over the long term the Gulf Coast is more hurricane-prone than the East Coast.

Last edited by Patricius Maximus; 11-10-2013 at 08:23 AM..
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Rocky Mountain Xplorer
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I was living in Houston when Ike hit in 2008 and it was a minor news event outside of the region because of
a much more highly publicized man-made storm, one of the financial variety in the form of the collapse of Investment Bank Lehman-Brothers which hit wall street the same week. I had a home in the Clear Lake area which was only a matter of miles from Galveston Bay which opens into the Gulf of Mexico and it was very close to landfall and the area suffered much less damage than when the smaller but stronger Alicia hit the area in the 80s. In other words, size dosen't matter nearly as much for these storms as strength does when it comes to wrecking havoc on an area.
And Camille from the 1960s which made landfall on the Gulf of Mexico @ Pass Christian was virtually of the same strength as the typhoon which just hit the Phillipines, however they don't talk about that too much since a storm of that magnitude over 40 years ago offers too much contradiction to the popular and contemporary political narrative provided with the Sandys and Haiyans.
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Miami,FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfredB1979 View Post
The flip side of that porous soil is that Florida is built on equally porous limestone.

Last I checked, sinkholes welcome everything in with...openings.

So, Florida taking hurricanes "much better" might be a wee bit shortsighted.
those sinkholes are not nearly as common in southern florida. where we are built on a solid bedrock
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Laurentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBaker488 View Post
In other words, size dosen't matter nearly as much for these storms as strength does when it comes to wrecking havoc on an area.
If you're referring to the one spot where the maximum winds are, a compact storm is much stronger (none more so than a tornado), but if you measure strength by total impact or total energy the larger storms tend to be stronger.

Quote:
And Camille from the 1960s which made landfall on the Gulf of Mexico @ Pass Christian was virtually of the same strength as the typhoon which just hit the Phillipines, however they don't talk about that too much since a storm of that magnitude over 40 years ago offers too much contradiction to the popular and contemporary political narrative provided with the Sandys and Haiyans.
Comparing the two, Camille had a pressure of 905 mb and a wind of 190 mph; Haiyan had an estimated pressure of 895 mb and a wind of 195 mph, and a larger circulation than Camille (though only half the size of Sandy). There are significant differences, but despite that I agree with Joe Bastardi's opinion that Camille and Haiyan were of similar intensity along with a host of others in what can be called the "top tier" of hurricane strength. No tropical cyclone to date has broken out of that tier, and storms of this class have occurred throughout history with no discernible trend upwards or downwards in frequency or intensity in recent years.

I do believe there's a lot of changes and trends going on in extratropical systems, the jet stream, and the tracks and behavior of hurricanes (c.f. the relative dearth of compact hurricanes in recent years). However, I don't think it's global warming, and I don't think there's any changes occurring in the top tier of hurricanes or intense hurricanes in general. The (political) narrative of "the hotter waters are feeding monster storms like Sandy and Haiyan, hypercanes will kill us by 2040, etc." doesn't make sense to me based on what I'm seeing. Also, I reiterate that Sandy is better understood as an extratropical storm than as a hurricane. Aside from being hurricanes at some point in their life cycles, Sandy and Haiyan had nothing in common.
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