Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Weather > Hurricanes
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-06-2017, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Alaska and ... everywhere
14 posts, read 12,942 times
Reputation: 83

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
Houston Lake dam failure analysis

.

It has not failed yet, however, it is almost certain to exceed design limit.
.

The dam has a giant spillway over 3000 feet long. The spillway is designed to release water from Lake Houston after it reaches 41 feet high.
.

This is an update to my analysis after level of the lake rose from 51 ft to 52.38 ft.
.

This means right now the dam is one big waterfall 3000 feet long and 11 feet thick.

.

It is a good dam.

.

The spillway was designed for a huge flow. It is made from reinforced concrete. It is highly unlikely that the 3000 foot long section will fail.
.
However, dams have limits.
.

No one expected rain like Houston has been having now.
.

Engineers never expected the level of Lake Houston to exceed 54 feet.
.
Right now we are less than 2 ft from design limit.
.

The dam won't fail exactly at 54 feet. Engineers always build in a safety factor.
Provided the dam has been well maintained it should hold fine.

.
This said, the rest of the walls of the dam are only 60 feet high. This means if the lake rises to 60 feet it will spill over walls not intended to act as a spillway.
.

Again, the big long 3000 foot section is fine since it is designed to spill water.

.

If the whole dam is overwhelmed, failure should be expected. It all depends on how high and for how long.

If there is a failure, obviously the flow of the San Jacinto will increase.
.
My best guess is flow will go from about 600,000 cfs to 900,000 cfs.

.

BTW The average flow of the Mississippi is right around 600,000 cfs and the peak measured flow was several million cfs.
.

It is not as if there isn't already a flood. The fact is, the flood is happening whether the dam fails or not.

.

Many people only talk about the rain event of 1994.

.

The lake level peaked at 52.79 ft. That was pretty close to the design limit of 54 ft.
.
If a non-hurricane rain event almost overwhelmed the dam in 1994, wouldn't that have been a big wakeup call? Apparently not. Houston continued building, continued damaging wet lands and made the situation worse.
No one seems to have considered it important to modify the dam so it would safely spill more water.

.

Certainly at this point we have to accept that the current rain event will cause the lake level to go higher, and the maximum design limit will be exceeded.

.

I have been tracking three river guages for rivers going into Lake Houston. One is now maxed out and can't read any higher. They just never dreamed to put the guage higher than 20 feet above the riverbanks. This means right now the East Fork of the San Jacinto has spilled over it's banks 20 feet deep in all directions.

.

The West Fork of the San Jacinto is now reading over 67 feet and close to reaching maximum reading too. This means the flow in this channel going to Lake Houston is already more than the rain event of 1994.

.

One thing people might think is the dam is supposed to help with flood control. This particular dam doesn't.

.

The reason is capacity. The total volume of Lake Houston is about 5 billion ft3.
.
That may sound big, however, you must consider how big the figure is for total volume coming into the lake per second. It's 100s of thousands of ft3/sec.
.
Even if authorities emptied Lake Houston just before Harvey struck, the Lake would have been full again in a few hours.

.

There is big spillway and two gates to release water from Lake Houston. Using an estimated 10 ft/sec flow rate I found the spillway and gates should be able to release 600,000 cfs before the dam is over topped.

.

Will the flows reach 600,000 cfm?

.

Maybe, it depends largely on how much rain falls in the next 48 hours. Reports are between 10-20 inches. Not good.

.

Do I believe the dam will over top and fail. Well, let me put it this way. If I were below this dam I would be very interested to monitor current level.

.

Here is a link: https://waterdatafortexas.org/reserv...vidual/houston

.

There were two rain events which exceeded 1994. However, both occurred before Lake Houston dam was built. One event was 1929 and the other 1940.

.

An analysis I found performed based on the 1929 event estimated that the flow in the San Jacinto peaked at 600,000 cfs.

.

It is perhaps not coincidental this is the number I determined to be absolute maximum spillway capacity. The engineers who designed the dam must have looked back to that 1929 flood.

.

So what will happen?

.

I can't say for sure. However, I think the possibility of a dam breach is real.

.

Again this should not, if it occurs, be a major breach, and it is not as if there currently isn't an active flood already.

.

This said keep an eye Houston Lake level. That dam may prove to be the most important lesson we learn the hard way.
.
When you build in a flood area, build high and expect the water to come.


Feel free to copy and paste.
Great analysis - thx
quick question...

This may be farfetched, but asking for a friend. Any chance all this hurricane activity is related to the unusual sun activity in the past couple of weeks? https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/...s-and-warnings plus the eclipse, etc. We have a full moon, two eclipses, excess space weather fluctuations... Everyone wants to put all this on climate change. Wondering if non-terrestrial things are affecting it.

+++100 on your comments about learning the hard way. Pretty amazing considering we didn't seem to learn from Katrina. Can't happen here, right? Who needs flood insurance? We live near the ocean, it will all drain there... Humans really are insane
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-06-2017, 04:53 PM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,832,630 times
Reputation: 25341
Has anyone considered if we had not gone to war in Mid East -and certainly for as long as we have-
What we could have done with all that money???
You are right-- humans are slow to learn...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2017, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Alaska and ... everywhere
14 posts, read 12,942 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
Has anyone considered if we had not gone to war in Mid East -and certainly for as long as we have-
What we could have done with all that money???
You are right-- humans are slow to learn...
not related to hurricane but related to mideast,
worth the 45 minutes to watch. Just sayin'
Point being (as you are saying) we just never seem to learn from history. The above professor posits that it's because we really are too afraid to know or understand the truth. and as he says, no one gets out of this looking good...

So - Onward for Texas and Louisiana, prayers for those in the path of Katia, Irma and Jose ... God help us all (not gonna be PC, I'm too old and "no atheists in foxholes...)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2017, 06:02 PM
 
7,258 posts, read 4,624,529 times
Reputation: 2105
Quote:
Originally Posted by KodiakBear99645 View Post
....
This may be farfetched, but asking for a friend. Any chance all this hurricane activity is related to the unusual sun activity in the past couple of weeks? https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/...s-and-warnings plus the eclipse, etc. We have a full moon, two eclipses, excess space weather fluctuations... Everyone wants to put all this on climate change. Wondering if non-terrestrial things are affecting it. ....
Honestly we're just at the average peak of hurricane season so having all these storms at this time of the year is considered normal, coinciding when the waters are at their peak temperatures (fuel for hurricanes). It just so happens a big one actually made landfall and didn't move once it got there.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2017, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Alaska and ... everywhere
14 posts, read 12,942 times
Reputation: 83
Geez - my apologies for the post above this one!!! I was posting from my phone.... someone sent me that link so it was in the memory and I thought I was putting this "Hurricanes in perspective" link... Just tried to delete it, and it's too late. Mea Culpa...

This is the interesting link on hurricanes and lessons we need to learn from them ... not trying to turn things all political! I'll climb back into my cave now
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-07-2017, 06:20 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,832,630 times
Reputation: 25341
Thanks for new link
Forwarded to my sister
We had discussion about it yesterday
In situation where it takes so long to build your statistical model history, if you aren't ahead of the curve in trying to amend any factors that MIGHT cause negative results ( like increased carbon dioxide emissions) or risk closing the door on any significant improvements?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2017, 09:45 PM
 
1,717 posts, read 1,690,565 times
Reputation: 2204
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 08:09 AM
 
7,258 posts, read 4,624,529 times
Reputation: 2105
Official NHC final storm report on Harvey was released Jan 25, 2018 (see links beside storm name):
https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/in...2017&basin=atl
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 08:25 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
45,983 posts, read 53,447,987 times
Reputation: 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychoma View Post
Official NHC final storm report on Harvey was released Jan 25, 2018 (see links beside storm name):
https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/in...2017&basin=atl
I was just about to link to it; you beat me to it by 15 minutes. I assume we both saw it on Eric Blake's twitter?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 09:01 AM
 
7,258 posts, read 4,624,529 times
Reputation: 2105
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I was just about to link to it; you beat me to it by 15 minutes. I assume we both saw it on Eric Blake's twitter?
His and NHC's Atlantic basin twitter ( @NHC_Atlantic ).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Weather > Hurricanes

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:39 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top