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Old 10-12-2006, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Tater Town USA
140 posts, read 490,580 times
Reputation: 93

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I must say that a lot of great things have been accomplished by America's various Unions.
1) A 40 hour work week.
2) Child Labor Laws.
3) Health Benefits.
4) Worker Safety Laws.
There are alot more. If you think Employers willingly gave these perks to people guess again. Union members fought and died for what many take for granted today. Bust them and watch you're benefits and conditions deteriorate.
And yes Izzy, you should go out of you're way to buy American Union made products.
Think about it. Many younger people have no idea what the Unions have done.
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Old 10-13-2006, 07:02 AM
 
434 posts, read 3,174,027 times
Reputation: 356
Let's not forget that unions have:

-Long running connections with organized crime
-In charge of running some of the worst school districts in the country
-Are the reason that we can't get rid of government employees, many of whom have jobs that are outdated or no longer needed.
-Force you to pay higher prices at grocery stores due to the inflated wages of the employees.

I will thank the unions for the stuff that they did in 1906(I'm still waiting on the 40 hour work week, lol), but the current state of unions does nothing to help the American worker. That's why I believe the figure for union membership is at it's lowest point. Less than 5% of all working Americans belong to a union. The only person that should be looking out for you is you. If you do not like a job, go find another one. I can't understand people complaining about staying in a job that doesn't pay well or treats them poorly.

Back to the issue of "right to work" and "at will", Idaho is not alone in having these laws. I know Arizona has similar laws and I am guessing so does Utah, Colorado, Montana and most other western states other than Nevada and California.
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Old 10-13-2006, 10:16 AM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,297 posts, read 54,188,200 times
Reputation: 40623
Quote:
Originally Posted by micrguy View Post
Let's not forget that unions have:

I can't understand people complaining about staying in a job that doesn't pay well or treats them poorly.

.


There can be good arguments made on both sides of the issue. What do you do in areas like some coal mining regions where there is really only one industry? If everybody leaves then what? People should have at least a reasonable expectation of surviving a day at work and unions did do some good work towards that end.
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Old 10-13-2006, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Central CA
318 posts, read 1,315,018 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by micrguy View Post
Let's not forget that unions have:

-Long running connections with organized crime
-In charge of running some of the worst school districts in the country
-Are the reason that we can't get rid of government employees, many of whom have jobs that are outdated or no longer needed.
-Force you to pay higher prices at grocery stores due to the inflated wages of the employees.

I will thank the unions for the stuff that they did in 1906(I'm still waiting on the 40 hour work week, lol), but the current state of unions does nothing to help the American worker. That's why I believe the figure for union membership is at it's lowest point. Less than 5% of all working Americans belong to a union. The only person that should be looking out for you is you. If you do not like a job, go find another one. I can't understand people complaining about staying in a job that doesn't pay well or treats them poorly.

Back to the issue of "right to work" and "at will", Idaho is not alone in having these laws. I know Arizona has similar laws and I am guessing so does Utah, Colorado, Montana and most other western states other than Nevada and California.
Oh my goodness Let's look at some of this. Unions in schools: Even with the unions in schools our teachers across the country do not make the money they should make. These are the educators of our children. Yes, like any profession...you have those you wish were not there. Or you feel "How did they get the job." But overall teachers work really hard. I know some schools locally try to cut benefits and cost by working teachers less than 40 hours. Teachers split classes...one working 3 days...the other 2 days. Therefore they have no benefits. Not okay.

Have you ever applied for a government job: I have, there not easy to get and there are cut backs all the time. Folks who have worked for the government for most of their careers should have some job security. You'll be old someday too. "out dated and no longer needed" If I ever caught my children saying that...grandma would teach them about "out dated and no longer needed." Show some respect for older folks.

Paying more at the grocery store: I like shopping at our local market. Union. Small market so I head down the hill for big shopping. But it is nice seeing the same faces...they call you by name...ask about your kids...being a grocery clerk is all about people skills...the store manager askes about my little girl all the time. He is quick to offer a hand reaching something or helping me load the groceries in the car. That kind of service you don't get in cheap stores. The folks working there come and go and no one knows you. It isn't a career paying job without the union.

You said:
"The only person that should be looking out for you is you. If you do not like a job, go find another one. I can't understand people complaining about staying in a job that doesn't pay well or treats them poorly."

There are lots of reasons to stay with a job...even when managers change and all of a sudden you're treated differently. You have 15 years with the company. The manager is new...he will move on...my husband has had five managers in that time.

15 years with the company and you have earned things. 4 weeks of paid vacation. They would have to close the store before he was laid off. He is at the top of seniority. Don't forget a family to feed and a mortgage to pay. Family members who have medical issues that need medical benefits to live.
We have all this because of the union. A person can still give his working life to a company and expect to retire from it. The union gives us that. People have value and deserve respect. I think that is the biggest message from unions.

I pay my babysitter, Saturday night, that does it for extra money $10. an hour. More than she makes on her regular job. She is worth every penny. She is caring for my children after all.

Izzy
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Old 10-13-2006, 01:10 PM
 
434 posts, read 3,174,027 times
Reputation: 356
Izzy - we will have to agree to disagree. But I want to clarify something, if a computer or automation can do the job of 2-3 government employees you are in favor of keeping them on the payroll? I am not in any way against older workers, but what are you supposed to do if a computer can do their job faster and cheaper?

I once had a client that told me that they used to have 4 people doing bids and job costing manually until they bought a computer. One computer put 3 of the 4 people out of work. According to a union mindset, we should keep those people employed even though there is nothing for them to do, just because they have worked there for a long time? I'm just trying to understand how union people think.

We live in a world marketplace and the United States has to be very competitive with our labor. I think one reason the US is able to change gears so quickly is because we do not have strong labor unions to bog us down. Look at France, the whole country shuts down because the unions think that you should have cradle to grave employment security without the threat of being laid off. When France trys to give employers some ability to fire non-performing employees, the unions have a riot for a week.

I have gotten way OT, so this is the last I will say about this. There is a reason why the states that have little to no union activity are the states that are growing. Look at states like MI, OH, PA and others with high union membership, they are dying and people are leaving those states in droves.
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Old 10-13-2006, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Central CA
318 posts, read 1,315,018 times
Reputation: 151
Your right microguy, we should leave it at, agree to disagree...But as far as your last post. People who have given their working careers to a company should not be dumped because of new tech. options.

We are a new world of stream lining and the bottom dollar. But I still have old fashion values of "people have value, and that value should be respected even more when the person is reaching those golden years." The family tradition of taking care of our older folks/elderly at home and the work place is important, not only to us as a country. But also to set the example for our children. Older folks have a lot of history and skills to offer the younger workers. Stuff you don't get out of a computer. If the union helps that to happen. Thank goodness for the union.

My business is computer based. I'm 52 years old. I have to think...If we take the path of getting rid of the "old plow horse". That someday our kids will take the example we have set, and put us in old folks homes, like we have no value.

In our family...our kids some adults some little...value and respect the work their senior family members do and have done. They are sought after by our little ones to hear history and values taught in the years past.

Don't be so quick to replace them with computers. There are more important things in this world then the bottom line. Workers need to have good work ethics, moral values, and give their employers a hundred percent. The example they set in the work place for younger employees...can you put a price on it?

Well enough on this...it has been fun sharing ideas with you. I enjoy it. Catch you later.

Izzy
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Old 10-13-2006, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,815 posts, read 12,969,635 times
Reputation: 2000001497
At Will isn't a big deal for the most part. I've worked in At Will states most of my working life. No company is going to fire you without good reason and if you're a good employee who isn't calling in sick once a week or showing up late every morning and meeting company performance standards or exceeding them. Also, even in right to work and At Will states, if the company you work for is based in California or some other very worker protective state, the Human Resources Department and internal lawyers will usually use that baseline in making firing decisions. The reason being to avoid lawsuits. Maybe small companies might liberally apply the At Will, etc., but I doubt it's much to worry about. The truth is that no company is secure and no one should ever think that loyalty pays off over time. It doesn't. The people who remember your loyalty and who might use that in decision-making more than likely have moved on themselves replaced by new management who don't give a crap about your prior loyalty or achievements. Your work is really only evaluated on your last performance in most companies...and...you have the right to evaluate and judge your employer the same way and vote with your feet.
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:24 AM
 
16 posts, read 75,364 times
Reputation: 22
I am very pro union. I admit I'm a government worker and I do know that it takes forever to fire a crappy worker. However, It also ensures due process in decision making and not based on politics. What type of government worker do you want? One that makes decision out of fears of reprimand or losing thier job or one that represents the people of the localit they represent regardless of how popular it may be with administrators? Unions or associations allow the good government works to stand up and challenge the system. However, the drawback is that some abuse the system to skate along and do little. I'm not sure that eliminating government unions or associations is a good thing. That's why I ask about Idaho. If I work for the State I want to represent the interests of the people of the State, not my boss.
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Old 05-19-2007, 10:30 AM
 
91 posts, read 482,865 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy View Post
I disagree on this one Micrguy. My husband is in a mechanic's union. Has been most of his working years. The management comes and goes, non union. My husband has been through at least 5 managers in 15 years. His co-worker was there for 30 years. His co-worker decided to go to sells side, non-union, and in two years time...they "de-hired him" means they did down and dirty stuff until they made him quit. Management calls it de-hire so they don't have to pay unemployment benefits. They would NEVER get away with it on a union employee. The co-worker has since gone to work for their competitor and taken a huge customer base with him.

The union has stepped in more than once when needed, and because of it...the management treats the union employees a lot nicer than they treat the non-union employees.

Izzy
I've worked in grocery for three years, not long by grocery standards, and especially by union definition. I started at a utah grocer with a great deal of retail experience and was rewarded by starting at a pay scale just below journeyman. I was more qualified and performed better than my coworkers and became a supervisor after six months at journeyman pay. Both of these situations would have been impossible at a union store where garbage employees are rewarded for sticking around. Management ends up with lazy, grizzled tyrants with no work ethic. In union stores it's near impossible to discharge poor employees, frankly I wish my "at will" employer would discharge MORE of our poor employees, people are rarely fired. After two years of excellent service I moved to Portland, OR and expected to improve my situation by moving to a union store, I'd heard stories of the great pay and benefits. Upon contacting stores in the area most wouldn't even discuss wages with me and repeatedly told me that I'd have to start at oregon minimum wage as a bagger because these stores wouldn't allow new hires for any other department (7.25 at the time, I was making 11.99). I kept calling area stores until I found a store director brave enough to offer me a job, he told me that he'd have no problem matching my pay. Upon arriving I found out that was a lie, he told me that all he could get authorized through the union was 10.00 per hour. I told myself that even though it was a pay cut in expensive oregon vs. cheap utah I wouldn't have to pay for insurance so it would even out and I would be getting raises to that 15-16 an hour I'd heard about. You can imagine my surprise when I found that while there are only about 5 pay steps in a non union store in a union there are 15 and your raises are 40-60 cents per six months rather than the 1.50-2.00 I was used to. I started calculating and it would take me an additional three years to get to a livable wage for the area. I also found that the insurance wasn't a dream either. There were no options, only one plan that was good, but not great but it took TWO years to get, not six months live my non unionized store. A introductory joke insurance was given at one year with horrible coverage. That's ONE YEAR of paying their stupid dues for nothing! Sadly I had to leave a beautiful city because I couldn't survive with my family on that ridiculous wage and as a college student I wasn't qualified to do anything else. I moved back to utah and immediately got a job at my old wage, then changed departments and got a raise, moved into store management after three months of being back and now am payed almost 14 an hour with benefits that I CHOOSE after only six months. The bottom line is that unions look out for those that pay their dues the longest, not the best, most hard-working employees. Remember the southern california strikes? they ended up with a pay REDUCTION after six months of striking (las vegas and phoenix are payed as much as them now, both at will employment states) Now so cal wants to strike again while i've gotten two cost of living raises since from corporate without having to starve for six months. I'll NEVER work for a union again!
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Old 05-19-2007, 03:28 PM
 
43 posts, read 312,379 times
Reputation: 39
Not sure about new homes on a acre, I'm sure you can find them but you didn't mention a price range. I'll send you the name of the realtor I'm using.
Pocatello Creek, Buckskin and Johnny creek area all have existing homes on an acre or more. You should also include Chubbuck. Blackfoot has new homes on land and is about 15 minuets north on the 15. I recently looked at a new home there on 2 acres that was about 100 yards from the snake river, 240k range.
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