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I don't understand why anyone needs to be forced to recognize any group or race. Who sees color until it's forced upon them? Who cares about gay couples until you force them to be recognized? If you want a group of people to become hated, force acceptance of them. Why do people have to accept anyone just because of their race, religion or lifestyle? You start doing that and you are only turning the tables and forcing your beliefs on someone else. So that makes it right?
Uh, it's not about recognition. It's about equal protection to civil and other fundamental rights to classes of people, whether you're talking about race, sex, gender, religion, or orientation, especially when there are clear, tangible, and distinguishable examples of discrimination.
Gay couples care about gay couples... and the fact that they aren't protected from discrimination in employment or housing policy, in public accommodation, or in being afforded the equal rights, benefits, and standing conferred in marriage that other couples get.
If you don't understand it, maybe it is because you aren't personally affected by it. Suppose we swap out "gay" for "woman," and we imagine a society in which women can be fired from a job simply for being a woman, or denied housing, or refused service at a restaurant, or more, they weren't able to choose who they can marry (instead, they were simply subject to the whims of any man wanting to marry them). Do you think then you'd care about equal protection, civil rights, and acceptance?
In the US, I can hold opinions that are pretty much universally repugnant. I can believe that children are worthless beings not worthy of life and that infanticide should be legal. I can believe that all people who aren't exactly like me are second class citizens not worth having any rights. It can get even more ridiculous and distasteful, but I'd probably get banned.
(Note, I don't actually believe these things).
Unless you're a relativist of the most extreme sort, it is not controversial to suggest that there are some opinions out there that are ridiculous and distasteful. It is important to emphasize that I did not suggest ANYTHING of what those views might be, just that they are out there. I mean, some people hold opinions that are so far out there that it is unlikely that any dialogue is ever going to matter.
Now, if you want to continue to waste time on this particular sub-issue, I suppose we can, but it's completely missing the original point. Are you really going to argue that there are no opinions out there that might be pretty universally ridiculous and distasteful?
A quote from you (post #11) "Read the Texas decision. It is the best explanation of why the time has come and why the opposition to gay marriage is illogical, harmful, and hateful."
The original point was that "the time has come"
My point was that Idaho is "not there yet" and that if anybody hopes to change anybody's mind (without one party simply ramming their beliefs down another party's throat) a safe environment needs to be established so that open and non-judgmental discussion can occur.
My other point was that name calling, and denigrating and dismissing other peoples' beliefs and opinions, will not set the stage for people to be able to hear what you're saying. It also does not set the stage for you to be able to hear what THEY are saying. You do an awful lot of talking. Maybe you need to listen a little more as well.
I'm game. Explain to me, then, the position that the other side can take in opposing equal protection to LGBT folk, in denying gay marriage, that is rational, well reasoned, and in interest of an elevated discussion.
At some point a line is drawn. We don't entertain racism though at one time there were a significant amount of the population who thought it was justified, and who drew upon a litany of reasons in doing so. The same argument applies to the position of women in society.
Just because someone has a belief and opinion about something does not make it the right opinion, or one worthy of respect. In other words, we can respect the fact that people are entitled to different opinions, but that doesn't mean we need to respect those opinions. Heck, even to this day in this state there are factions of people who are thoroughly convinced that people of white skin are superior to those who do not have Aryan traits. How do you even begin to have an "open and non-judgmental discussion" with people who believe such things?
Unfortunately, you're right... the time has not yet come in Idaho. And because of that reason, it will have to fall upon to Courts to demonstrate why anti-LGBT policy is unconstitutional. And yet, some people will still keep their heads in the sand.
Everybody in the United States already has the same rights under the US Constitution,
and unfair discrimination was outlawed in the the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
The Constitution trumps perverted sexual deviancy, or at least it should.
If I don't want to do business with homosexuals, I shouldn't be forced to.
And why would they want to anyway? They wouldn't. That's the red herring.
The goal is to punish and destroy any individual or organization that opposes their sick
lifestyle, and they're doing it under the fallacious and false pretense of "equality".
Granting "LGBT rights" to homosexuals at the expense of religious freedom creates inequality.
What part of that don't people get?
For a fact, a business can display a certain lack of willingness to serve all the public with measures that fall short of breaking the law.
A restaurant, for example, that wants to cater to only adults can offer no high chairs or other physical accommodations for children, and may not offer a child's menu. Neither breaks any laws.
But the same restaurant cannot turn away a couple with a small child. If the couple decides to stay and eat, despite whatever inconvenience their child presents to them, and to the other diners, there is nothing the restaurant owners can do about it.
This instance often happens in steakhouses and other adult eateries. Almost always, it only happens once, and the parents get the point and leave their kids at home the next time they go there.
This is the most desired solution for the restaurant owners as well; sometimes an owner will grew a departing couple with a child a discount adults-lonly certificate as a polite way of announcing their policies and a way to encourage a return visit by the adults alone.
Aren't these certificates a much better way of resolution? No feelings are hurt, and future business may be possible. Other food oriented businesses, including wedding cake bakers and caterers could come up with similar non-combative solutions if they wanted to. The siblings of gays, and their straight friends and other relations get married, too. A good word is always better than a bad word when there are many good cake bakers.
Personally, since I'm not gay, I don't know how much I would be offended by a cake shop if I was turned away. I'm sure I would, but I'm not sure I would have walked through the shop door with no recommendations, as I've only purchased one wedding cake so far in my life. If I heard a baker was a known bigot, I would never buy a box of doughnuts from him, much less a wedding cake.
But that's me. I don't tolerate bigots and fools, and I dislike unnecessary confrontation brought on by either.
I'm game. Explain to me, then, the position that the other side can take in opposing equal protection to LGBT folk, in denying gay marriage, that is rational, well reasoned, and in interest of an elevated discussion.
At some point a line is drawn. We don't entertain racism though at one time there were a significant amount of the population who thought it was justified, and who drew upon a litany of reasons in doing so. The same argument applies to the position of women in society.
Just because someone has a belief and opinion about something does not make it the right opinion, or one worthy of respect. In other words, we can respect the fact that people are entitled to different opinions, but that doesn't mean we need to respect those opinions. Heck, even to this day in this state there are factions of people who are thoroughly convinced that people of white skin are superior to those who do not have Aryan traits. How do you even begin to have an "open and non-judgmental discussion" with people who believe such things?
Unfortunately, you're right... the time has not yet come in Idaho. And because of that reason, it will have to fall upon to Courts to demonstrate why anti-LGBT policy is unconstitutional. And yet, some people will still keep their heads in the sand.
BF88,
This forum is for the mutual sharing of ideas, not just those that meet YOUR criteria for ideas that pass your approval.
This post helps me understand why you're struggling to maintain any level of decorum, but I have to insist that if you're going to keep posting in this thread that you bring up the level of your discourse considerably.
You have presented the Texas judge's ruling as the "end of the conversation", yet the SCOTUS only went 5-4 on this issue, and Scalia's dissent expressed the feeling of many Americans when he penned,
""It is one thing for a society to elect change; it is another for a court of law to impose change by adjudging those who oppose it hostes humani generis, enemies of the human race...declaring anyone opposed to same-sex marriage an enemy of human decency ... In the majority’s telling, this story is black-and-white: Hate your neighbor or come along with us."
It sounds to me like Scalia was also hearing the same sort of tone coming from people that you're giving off here. You just can't keep getting spun. It's not constructive.
EVERYONE posting in this thread needs to take note of this warning. Just because someone is not in agreement with gay marriage does not by default make them ignorant, uneducated, mean spirited, etc. It means they have a different opinion than you. That's it.
For this thread to stay open (and we're walking a tightrope here), civility first...or don't post.
I've read all the posts, although I haven't read the TX law yet. TY Boisefan88 for including the link.
Before I address some comments or post others, I want to thank Sage. I appreciate your work. It's not exactly like I sent you a DM saying what I wanted to do so you could prepare for what you would have to do
I wrote notes so I hope I don't credit the wrong person with the point I want to address. If I botch something it is due to tired eyes nothing else.
Boisefan88, I appreciate your posts and how thorough you've been. One thing I'm going to add in the Idaho Falls sub-forum Media section is a link to the Idaho Statesman. Both you and Syringialoid have started sharing sources of information for anyone in the state. Thanks to both of you!
I hope we can develop a resource page that perhaps can be tacked somewhere. Everyone, please think of where it would be the most useful for those in the state and for those considering relocating to Idaho.
Informing the group how long dialogue has been attempted is important, IMO, Boisefan88. Those who wonder can be directed to your post. I suspect it feels like not even a cm. of progress has been made but I would disagree. Sometimes it takes reading several pages of posts to see what I see. And certainly more people are reading this can post currently.
BanjoMike, I think most discussions in ID have been better than some states at the city level. What I don't know is how many Idaho locations are having meetings each month or more frequently on an ongoing basis to learn more about people, genetics, concerns etc. My concern is too many locations have not tried to meet to discuss myths vs. updates and those meetings can get very heated fast. In what has been written so far, there is outdated information about churches and potentially more.
This forum is for the mutual sharing of ideas, not just those that meet YOUR criteria for ideas that pass your approval.
This post helps me understand why you're struggling to maintain any level of decorum, but I have to insist that if you're going to keep posting in this thread that you bring up the level of your discourse considerably.
You have presented the Texas judge's ruling as the "end of the conversation", yet the SCOTUS only went 5-4 on this issue, and Scalia's dissent expressed the feeling of many Americans when he penned,
""It is one thing for a society to elect change; it is another for a court of law to impose change by adjudging those who oppose it hostes humani generis, enemies of the human race...declaring anyone opposed to same-sex marriage an enemy of human decency ... In the majority’s telling, this story is black-and-white: Hate your neighbor or come along with us."
It sounds to me like Scalia was also hearing the same sort of tone coming from people that you're giving off here. You just can't keep getting spun. It's not constructive.
EVERYONE posting in this thread needs to take note of this warning. Just because someone is not in agreement with gay marriage does not by default make them ignorant, uneducated, mean spirited, etc. It means they have a different opinion than you. That's it.
For this thread to stay open (and we're walking a tightrope here), civility first...or don't post.
I'm glad I had to check an earlier post again so I saw this new post from Sage.
Depending on how we treat each other, be it in agreement or disagreement will dictate what Sage has to do to Moderate or close the thread.
I know we're walking a very fine line here. I'm straight, but this thread matters to me because I have friends , and know several families who have LGBT family members. I'll say it again, I'm tired and saddened people are committing suicide in ID because they worry about attacks from others.
Let's work harder to treat each poster and his/her viewpoint as valuable information in how we talk to others in our communities.
My youngest brother married his partner this last December down in Salt Lake City when the ban was overturned. He and his ex wife have two young beautiful children who spend time with him and his new husband. I love my brother and he has my support as well as the rest of my families support. His ex wife supports him too in his decision because he and she are best friends.
I am looking forward to the day when other close people I know can get married at the Ada County Courthouse, or the Bonneville County Courthouse over in Idaho Falls, the grounds of the Sun Valley Resort, or wherever in Idaho.
Idaho is too great for hate.
TohobitPeak,
Thank you for sharing your brother's story with us. I smiled when I read all the various family members, and his best friend/ex-wife/ mother of his children who were supportive of your brother.
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like there were some potentially challenging years not just for your brother but family too. If you are comfortable with this, perhaps you could give us in general terms some tips your family addressed thinking your brother was married to a female with children to now being married to his husband.
Please feel free to add suggestions of how you think ID residents can do better than we currently are. Do you think city meetings could be useful? I know the tones we use and the words of caring matter in trying to help others understand what they may not.
I'm afraid I've got to end - I need some sleep. I hope we can address the equal protections and what they are soon.
Thanks again to Sage and others for your posts.
Night neighbors
MSR
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Getting Caught Up
