Canyon Creek Ranch in Sagle (Sandpoint: bank owned, for sale by owner, real estate)

[mpsouth]

My wife and I are looking around No. Idaho to see what it's all about and whether it might be an area to retire to. We have undertaken an exhausting search from CDA to Sandpoint and we really like most of the area. Some of the criteria for the location where "the last home we will ever purchase" is that it is wooded (mountain views would be a bonus) and has at least an acre of land. We want neighbors, but we don't want them living on top of us.

As we were driving on Hwy 95, we noticed a billboard advertising Canyon Creek Ranch --- 5+ acre lots, heavily wooded with mountain views. We drove up there and what we found was an area with a bunch of wooded lots with great views of Lake Pend Oreille and the surrounding mountains, paved roads, utilities in place... BUT NOT ONE HOME HAS BEEN BUILT. In fact, one of the lots had a For Sale by Owner sign.

When we got back to our hotel, I went online and found the website for the development which has a plat that indicates that quite a few of the lots have been sold (Sandpoint Canyon Creek). I also found a YouTube video that was uploaded in 2009 by a real estate agent to promote the area (Canyon Creek Ranch, Sandpoint, Idaho - YouTube). However, according to the other videos she has uploaded, she is now selling real estate in California.

Anybody have any further information about Canyon Creek Ranch? Have there been issues (legal or otherwise) with the developer or this development? I was unable to find anything in the news via Google. It is at least 5 years old in a great location so why are there no homes?

On a similar note... Does anyone have any information about other developments like this in No. Idaho that might fit our wishes? Land or homes. We found a development just off Bottle Bay Road near Hwy 95. I think it's called Golden Meadows. We liked it also but concerned about proximity of railroad tracks and the noise that brings.

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance.

[Sage of Sagle]

This has happened with several similar subdivisions where someone took 75 acres, chopped it into 15 5-acre lots, and thought they'd make a bundle...then got stuck with it when the market tanked. Most of these wound up being bank owned, but some had most or all of the lots in the hands of private owners, some going VERY cheap (like 15-20% of original asking price).

Sooner or later these lots will sell. Just a matter of time. I'd come visit and look at them...but avoid RR tracks, since the trains run 24/7 and they are loud and blow their horns at every crossing all night long.

[mpsouth]

Thanks for the reply, Sage. Do you know of any specific issues to this development that would delay land owners from building homes? If only 1 or 2 had been built, I would chalk it up to the economy. But when no one has, I wonder if there is something else going on.

Since you are there, are there similar developments like Canyon Creek in the Sandpoint/Sagle area? I would be more than happy to take a lot off of a developer at a clearance rack price.

[banjomike]

As Sage mentioned, the subdivision's developers probably got their credit shut off when their bank collapsed.

There may be a title problems now, as the failed bank may hold the titles to part or all of the property, or may be listed as a partner in the development corporation. Bank bankruptcy is always complicated, so resolution often is slow in coming.

It also may be possible that the realty company bought the undeveloped property and could obtain no financing for development afterward. A title search would give a lot of information as to the possibility of liens, bankruptcy, and other complicating items.

Depending on the level of development in Canyon Creek, if you're very interested in owning a property there, it may be possible to get a deal on one of the lots.

It would require legal services to clear the title, but if there aren't any big construction liens, such as those for laying the sewer and power lines, pavement, or similar stuff, it may be possible that the realty company and/or their financiers would be willing to sell cheap just to make a little return on their investments. Or in the case of bankruptcy, partially satisfy some of the liens against the title.

At the same time, since there is still lots of property that doesn't have these problems, it may be much simpler and easier to just forget Canyon Creek and go looking for another lot in the area. I checked the website you linked, and I didn't see anything extra-special about Canyon Creek.

[Sage of Sagle]

Originally Posted by mpsouth

Thanks for the reply, Sage. Do you know of any specific issues to this development that would delay land owners from building homes? If only 1 or 2 had been built, I would chalk it up to the economy. But when no one has, I wonder if there is something else going on.

Since you are there, are there similar developments like Canyon Creek in the Sandpoint/Sagle area? I would be more than happy to take a lot off of a developer at a clearance rack price.

I don't really know a bunch of them. But there was a development called Trickle Creek up Otts Basin on Dufort in Sagle. There was also an area called Copper Ridge off Dufort near Mays Road. Over on South Sagle Road there's also a subdivision...just not sure what it's called. You can probably find it by calling a realtor. I drove by today and saw there's still a sign out there for lots, it looks like...I'm sure there are more north of the bridge...

[mpsouth]

Wow... Do I have egg on my face!!

I called the real estate office handling Canyon Creek Ranch and spoke to a very nice gentleman there. I found out that there are actually 3 homes already built and 2 more were just started. I went to Google Earth and zoomed in and - lo and behold - there they are! When we were there, we didn't drive all the streets in the development and couldn't see the finished homes because of all the trees.

One of the things I found out talking to him is that a well is required for each lot. I guess you could say I'm a city slicker because I don't have any experience with wells. Anyone have any info/tips? I do like the idea of having an unlimited water supply without a bill to pay, but what are the hazards to look out for? Is it truly unlimited?

[Sage of Sagle]

As long as the power doesn't go out or your well doesn't dry up, yes, you have unlimited water. The chance of a decently dug well drying up is very low.

A well will set you back between $5k and $8k roughly, depending on how deep they must go. They hit 12gpm at 140' when doing our well. That's decent. Think about a faucet or shower head running at full blast...2-2.5gpm. So 12gpm could handle almost 5 faucets going full blast simultaneously.

If you happen to get low flow from a well, like 3-5gpm, then you do a cistern, like 3000-5000 gallons. This way, you can use a bunch of water but the well just has to refill the cistern.

[Toyman at Jewel Lake]

Originally Posted by mpsouth

Wow... Do I have egg on my face!!

I called the real estate office handling Canyon Creek Ranch and spoke to a very nice gentleman there. I found out that there are actually 3 homes already built and 2 more were just started. I went to Google Earth and zoomed in and - lo and behold - there they are! When we were there, we didn't drive all the streets in the development and couldn't see the finished homes because of all the trees.

One of the things I found out talking to him is that a well is required for each lot. I guess you could say I'm a city slicker because I don't have any experience with wells. Anyone have any info/tips? I do like the idea of having an unlimited water supply without a bill to pay, but what are the hazards to look out for? Is it truly unlimited?

Look into well logs of the area. They are available on the Idaho state website-if you can't find it let me know and I'll do some digging. Water is a very BIG deal on rural property. You can hit a 25 gallon per minute 100 feet deep, or you can sink a dry hole 800 feet down. The well logs will give you an idea what depth and capacity are like on adjacent properties. It would also really help to talk with a local well driller. We have 20gpm at 400 ft-the well and pumping system ran us about $12K, 12 years ago; I'm sure it's more now. You could easily spend $20k on a system if you had to go ~1000 feet deep, and/or hydrofracture to increase capacity. At the least, the lack of an existing, proven water source gives you a lot of leverage on price. Water "problems" should be seen as a show stopper on rural land. You might make a deal with the seller-agree to a (higher) price on the condition that the seller sinks a well that provides a minimum output of say 10gpm. Given that the lots are relatively small in that development, I'd take the lack of a "community" water system as a bit of a warning sign. It may well not be an issue, just go in with your eyes open.

The other item you should probably be aware of involves taxes. If you have 6 acres or more, you can get a "timber exemption" on all but 1 acre of your property (the "building site"). The tax rate on timberland is much lower than on building sites. The minimum you need for an exempton is 5 acres of timberland, plus the one acre extra for your house/buildings.

Also check on road maintenance. In many of the local developments the roads are private and the home owners are responsible for road upkeep and snow plowing. If that's the case, ask for a copy of the "road maintenance agreement"; it will spell out what is done and how the costs are divided. It is a requirement for many lenders. It's possible that the developer brought the streets up to county standards and the county does it, but check into it first.

[mpsouth]

This is all good information... Thanks folks. We will probably be making another trip up there in a few months and check out the other developments that Sage mentioned above and probably do a little scouting around the CDA area also.

[Toyman at Jewel Lake]

Oh, one other recommendation. If you do buy a house on significant rural acerage-figure a tractor into the mortgage/housing cost and get one right away. You'll find so many uses for one!