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Old 04-05-2015, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
28,470 posts, read 20,341,889 times
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If nothing else, damaging a $4+ million Idaho business may be giving him second thoughts.
When it comes to matters like this, the authors of a bill are mostly forgotten, but the Governor who signed off for the following damage is always remembered.

Not fondly, either. Just ask the Don Samuelson supporters, if there are any still in existence. Big Dumb Don, as he wasn't so affectionately known, moved out of state after his single term and died in Oregon.
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:44 AM
 
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MSR, You may be right that Otter has something planned via executive order. Really hard to read why the hesitation until Monday no matter which route he takes on passage or veto. Seems more likely passage of the bill and he wants to address the legislators on the "what's next" aspect of that reality. His veto would simply mean there is more immediate process to be dealt with. Of course, as I said earlier, and from a pretty reliable source, he would not veto unless certain that veto would hold up.

Now, as I understand it, if the bill is not passed those in favor of it's passage will go the judicial route. There is expense for the state in that process as the state must defend it's position on the constitutional standing of the original 2013 bill that allowed all this in the first place. On the flip side, if the bill passes the operators of historical horse racing have no avenue to travel on the judicial side. The court cannot write law and therefore cannot reinstate the original bill. What the operators can do is seek more acceptable legislation with a new bill. Since the legislature is still in session, that more acceptable legislation might be what Otter has in mind.

Pure speculation on my part. We will know tomorrow.
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:22 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 12,823,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
If nothing else, damaging a $4+ million Idaho business may be giving him second thoughts.
When it comes to matters like this, the authors of a bill are mostly forgotten, but the Governor who signed off for the following damage is always remembered.

Not fondly, either. Just ask the Don Samuelson supporters, if there are any still in existence. Big Dumb Don, as he wasn't so affectionately known, moved out of state after his single term and died in Oregon.
Yes, I totally agree, Mike. I thought I wrote that but I may have forgotten. Even if I did include, I didn't add a dollar amount. There is something that is overwhelming about reading $4 million in print! Otter has to have an estimate of how many businesses, jobs and people he would essentially be sending out-of-date to prosper and take Idaho tourist dollars as well when many go to other states to watch. Or if they remain in Idaho, how many would be added to state services such as Unemployment and Snap benefits from their current status as tax payers not depending on state services to feed their kids to part of the population adding to the state revenue? And I don't think he can ignore an independent revenue stream that doesn't tax anyone more but instead provides an independent stream of $ for education.

Whatever else Otter is or isn't, he was in charge of the profitable Simplot, prior to his divorce and political career. I don't think as a former CEO or CFO he can't6 easily ignore the fact he would be shutting $4,000,000 worth of business down and creating greater demand for state services. I do think he looks at bottom lines financially.

I agree that Otter would be known as the Governor who signed the bill that ruined a segment of the economy. He has kids and grandkids in the state, I can't believe he wants his grandkids to have to live with that label. At the same time, I don't think he can depend on the Legislature to get anything right about this bill. Too many can't be objective. I have never seen a Gov delay vetoing a bill if s/he knew the Legislature would follow his/her wishes.

That is why to me, the only thing he can do is work on this with Executive Orders, as bull dozer suggested earlier this week. But I could be very wrong. We should know by Monday night.

MSR
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bull dozer View Post
MSR, You may be right that Otter has something planned via executive order. Really hard to read why the hesitation until Monday no matter which route he takes on passage or veto. Seems more likely passage of the bill and he wants to address the legislators on the "what's next" aspect of that reality. His veto would simply mean there is more immediate process to be dealt with. Of course, as I said earlier, and from a pretty reliable source, he would not veto unless certain that veto would hold up.

Now, as I understand it, if the bill is not passed those in favor of it's passage will go the judicial route. There is expense for the state in that process as the state must defend it's position on the constitutional standing of the original 2013 bill that allowed all this in the first place. On the flip side, if the bill passes the operators of historical horse racing have no avenue to travel on the judicial side. The court cannot write law and therefore cannot reinstate the original bill. What the operators can do is seek more acceptable legislation with a new bill. Since the legislature is still in session, that more acceptable legislation might be what Otter has in mind.

Pure speculation on my part. We will know tomorrow.
bull dozer,

It looks like we were both writing and posting at the same time.

I guess I've read either different information or somehow you and I have a different understanding of the legal grounds owners of the Historical Racing terminals feel they have a strong case in court. Or maybe there honestly are differences in what is in Boise vs. Idaho Falls, which makes everything more convoluted. Regardless, one fact is true for everyone: The 2013 bill was signed into law by Otter.

I guess I don't understand those who would go to court if the bill doesn't become law. Besides the Coeur d' Alene area Native Americans, what other special interest groups or private citizens would sue the state, if the repeal doesn't become law? I don't see how Otter or any politician benefits from special interest suing the State. And I still do not understand why Otter would need to prepare the Legislature for a lawsuit. What role would the Legislature play in the lawsuit? I would appreciate you explaining to me a bit more what parties would sue if the bill is repealed, besides the special interest group. Conversely, you seem to not believe the owners of the terminals have a case. Will you please explain that further, bull dozer?

I agree that judges don't make laws. Rather they rule on the Constitutionality and interpretation of existing laws. The owners of Double Down in Idaho Falls have been running radio ads for weeks clarifying that fact. As a result, I believe more people have become active contacting their Legislatures and the Governor's office about this bill as they can see how the Idaho Falls owners, at least, have a lawsuit to file. No one from the Legislature or Racing Commission etc. have come east to personally see if the terminals are identical to those in Boise. I don't recall you writing that you had either, bull dozer. My only point being is there may be real differences between how things were done in Boise vs. Idaho Falls.

Two of the owners here are doing all the talking, but there is, or was, a third owner who owns a large technical business. Idaho can't afford to loose his growing multi-million or close to a billion dollar business and the hundreds of high paying jobs his company provides. While the Legislature has lumped all three Historical Racing Businesses together, maybe that was their first mistake. The third owner in Idaho Falls deals with too many contracts from D.C. and the Federal Gov. to want be involved in a state lawsuit. Four million is a lot of money, but this third owner has probably already paid that much in first quarter salaries in 2015. Maybe those are the numbers Gov. Otter has had to wrestle with too. Others have been as successful in their Idaho businesses as Otter was at Simplot. If this business were to leave Idaho, due to having to sue a repealed law, the state moves to last place in the U.S. for attracting new high tech jobs that pay high salaries. Any other state would love to have this business in their state.

You seem to have more confidence in the Legislature than I do, bull dozer. It would be one thing if it was the first day of the 2015 session. But the day before they close, the only thing Otter could ask for that they would have to do is a special session before July 2015 for a different bill, from my perspective. I think instead of a special session it is easier to handle this via Executive Order and either with the Racing or Gaming Commissions. Just my viewpoint knowing the facts I know. But I could be very wrong. Otter may be making decisions on Boise- based information only. His staff may not have connected the dots yet about the Idaho Falls tech company and who owns it.

We both agree we should know by tomorrow night

MSR

Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 04-05-2015 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
28,470 posts, read 20,341,889 times
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I watched the debate.
I thought far too many legislators veered off course to debate the morality of gambling instead of the issue at hand. I also think those folks voted for their morality views over the economics and legality of the issue as well.

Even so, there was a lot of substantive discussion that went on. The one thing I noticed was the importance of the racing industry to the state's economy was more overlooked than discussed. Idaho has 210 thousand horses by the 2010 state census, which equated to $1.6 billion in assets to their owners. Horse ownership increased 23% between 1995 and 2001. 4 million acres are devoted to equine care. $48 million in salaries came from the industry in 2010. AVerage ownership is 5 horses.

Racing effects a lot of our horse industry in ways most non-horse folks understand. Trail riding, horse events like shows and trials, rodeos, public and state land access, 4-H programs, Special Olympics, (and Olympics), all have connections to our horse industry. Idaho was the first state in the union to take an equine census, and it's brand registration fees, which are returned back to the industry in the form of state grants, was also the first of its kind. Both have been imitated since by all the states that have similar equine industries.

Animal abandonment and welfare, insurance liability, and other issues have also been pioneered here.

http://idahohorsecouncil.com/wp-cont...bro2010_52.pdf

Last edited by banjomike; 04-05-2015 at 04:07 PM..
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
I watched the debate.
I thought far too many legislators veered off course to debate the morality of gambling instead of the issue at hand. I also think those folks voted for their morality views over the economics and legality of the issue as well.

Even so, there was a lot of substantive discussion that went on. The one thing I noticed was the importance of the racing industry to the state's economy was more overlooked than discussed. Idaho has 210 thousand horses by the 2010 state census, which equated to $1.6 billion in assets to their owners. Horse ownership increased 23% between 1995 and 2001. 4 million acres are devoted to equine care. $48 million in salaries came from the industry in 2010. AVerage ownership is 5 horses.

Racing effects a lot of our horse industry in ways most non-horse folks understand. Trail riding, horse events like shows and trials, rodeos, public and state land access, 4-H programs, Special Olympics, (and Olympics), all have connections to our horse industry. Idaho was the first state in the union to take an equine census, and it's brand registration fees, which are returned back to the industry in the form of state grants, was also the first of its kind. Both have been imitated since by all the states that have similar equine industries.

Animal abandonment and welfare, insurance liability, and other issues have also been pioneered here.

http://idahohorsecouncil.com/wp-cont...bro2010_52.pdf

Thanks for adding such great info!

MSR
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:56 PM
 
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Talking Gov. Otter VETOES Repeal

I just heard the news on the radio. This is "fresh," not even 15 minutes old.

I'm pleasantly surprised this repeal was not signed into law. Perhaps the activism of residents is something the Gov. hasn't experienced at this level previously. Thanks to what Mike shared here ...the BIG BUSINESS of horses in Idaho just could not be ignored. The Gov. signed I think this is his 4th, maybe 5th, Veto in his three terms.

bull dozer mentioned this as an option. Otter has so rarely Vetoed I didn't think it was safe to plan he would veto this bill. His info to the Legislature: no new facilities to install the terminals. I think that is fair. He also is opening a special investigation in the existing terminals and asked the Legislature to join him. Press conference later today should clarify more, although the Statesman is a great start.

Do I think this will be in a bill in 2016- YES. As I wrote earlier I think every side needs to make changes. But this is a historical day, given that this governor has used his veto an average of two times per term.

Will the special interest reservation groups file suit? I hope not, but I don't know. I hope bull dozer will post and anyone else, who can better address this.

Otter vetoes repeal of instant horse racing | Local News | Idahostatesman.com

I'm glad this is done until those who conduct the Special Investigation into this

MSR

Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 04-06-2015 at 05:07 PM..
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
28,470 posts, read 20,341,889 times
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Apparently, these machines must be important to Idaho's racetracks.

I'm sure there are a lot of ways the machines could be re-designed to give the users an experience that's as fast as a slot machine, and may be able to work slightly like one, that still is more lottery-like, and more closely approximates the experience of a real race.

There are a lot of historically famous horses that come to mind, and most have some historic races in their histories. But all of them also ran races less famous than wins at the Triple Crown tracks, and sometimes they won or lost. Not all may have visuals, but the races' records still exist, and with digital effects being what they are, could be re-created for video purposes.

There is a solution. It's now up to those who are profiting from the machines to find it and make it allowable under state laws. That could be a superb undertaking for some Idaho computer design outfit.
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:29 PM
 
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Otter's formal letter of objection clearly throws the off track facility at Idaho Falls under the bus. Not sure about Post Falls, either. Looks like the only place allowed may end up being in Boise. And you may have heard by now the Senate is going along with Butch, so no repeal. Limiting only to Boise may satisfy the Indians as that would take away both the northern and eastern Idaho instant racing sites that compete with their nearby casinos. Keeping this away from the Idaho Supreme Court and the constitutional issue is of vital importance for long term survival. Happy Indians would help. Think they should still give them their poker games for good measure.

Investigation Butch is calling for is also a bit scary. Those words, "imitation and simulation" are quite powerful.

Overall, I'm a bit surprised, but happy for horse racing. Now, they just have to figure out how to get enough horses to run a race meet this summer and all should be well for one more year. After that, who knows? Not the most stable (pun intended) industry in the world, ya know.
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Old 04-06-2015, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bull dozer View Post
Otter's formal letter of objection clearly throws the off track facility at Idaho Falls under the bus. Not sure about Post Falls, either. Looks like the only place allowed may end up being in Boise. And you may have heard by now the Senate is going along with Butch, so no repeal. Limiting only to Boise may satisfy the Indians as that would take away both the northern and eastern Idaho instant racing sites that compete with their nearby casinos. Keeping this away from the Idaho Supreme Court and the constitutional issue is of vital importance for long term survival. Happy Indians would help. Think they should still give them their poker games for good measure.

Investigation Butch is calling for is also a bit scary. Those words, "imitation and simulation" are quite powerful.

Overall, I'm a bit surprised, but happy for horse racing. Now, they just have to figure out how to get enough horses to run a race meet this summer and all should be well for one more year. After that, who knows? Not the most stable (pun intended) industry in the world, ya know.
Glad you were able to post, bull dozer. More later.

Where can I find a copy of the Gov ' s letter? Do you have a link? I haven'-t read it and some media either haven't seen it yet or missed the boat understanding it. I know he said something about race track only, but I still see opportunities.

Congrats on nailing what Otter did You called it first. WE

MSR
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