Aryan Nation Fears Remain (Boise, Sandpoint: credit rating, middle school, salaries)

[pw72]

I believe it is also important to remember that Idaho is a large State geographically, and those few who settled in Northern Idaho were not only small in numbers, but small geographically. Idaho stretches across hundreds and hundreds of miles both north-south, and east-west. It takes a full day to drive from the northern panhandle to the southeast part of the State.

[boisefan88]

Originally Posted by im5150too

As we saw with our President's recent stupid remarks....

Oh please, do explain...

[Sandpointian]

Hi BF,

Originally Posted by boisefan88

So you appear to readily accept the article's light inference that nazis are still hiding under the bushes around here. More likely there ARE still a dozen (maybe two dozen) of them around in an area that doesn't want them here. I seriously doubt that they're akin to a "sleeper cell" waiting to be reactivated.

One has to accept the fact that there will always be some # of disaffected and disgruntled. There will also be those who sympathize with the Klan or the Nazis, or with Al Qaeda, the PLO, etc. While kooks, terrorists and wasted human lives to the vast majority, their messages resonate with those who have lost and continually lose in trying to control the game of life.

I think efforts to allow grievances to be aired while at the same time maintaining the rule of law and countering their ideology with superior views is the most effective combination to limit the growth of such groups and minimize their influence.

Originally Posted by boisefan88

Well, I truly wonder about all of that. The FBI went so far as to label the Aryan Nations a legitimate terrorist threat, and Northern Idaho was not only home to the Aryan Nations for almost 30 years, but also home to several other similar churches and movements in the area, as well as home to a number of incidents all of which suggest a pattern.

The idea that one should aggressively dismantle the power structure of hate groups is not one to dismiss lightly. However, one needs to be careful to differentiate amongst these groups as to their premise. The Feds have had great success against the Mafia on the basis of their criminal activity. However, the hate groups in question here are religious and political cults. These must be handled differently.

Crack down on their criminal activity, but let their views be aired. Allow these guys to air their views. If they are God-awful horrible, then a thinking people should see right through their illogicity and hate and will be embarrassed. If there is resonance, there just might be a few kernels of sentiment worthy of positive policy actions.

I have been reading Mein Kampf lately. I think it is instructive. Not for the irrational and ignorant rants, but for the sense how a Hitler can build in him such a world view and have it accepted by a significant number of citizens. The great tragedy that Germany experienced and participated in was not in allowing Hitler to rise to power but in the failure to address many of the underlying issues that gave him such popular support. Had this happened, there would have been no reason to rely on hatred for daily sustenance and therefore no Hitler. That people do not read this and other books is to our detriment and we are then doomed to repeat the past.

And of course, these issues are often coded. Racism in poor working class areas is almost always driven by the economics of survival: jobs, taxes, hope...The anti-immigration feelings we now see are largely the result of failed immigration policies (or lack thereof) that have let in millions of undocumented workers primarily from one region of the world, while at the same time various tax, education, and labour laws have conspired to undereducate many Americans while letting in through a quota system highly skilled foreign workers. The squeeze in play is real. To dismiss the disillusion is dangerous. Better would be to air the views and pinpoint the actionable policies that can help alleviate the burden felt by those who have gravitated to the "comfort" of hate.

And I am not discounting cultural factors. However, these often manifest through law and economics. The rise of Spanish instruction in California is mind bogglingly foolish and expensive paid for by tax payer dollars. Those hurt most are the Spanish-speakers themselves, who want to learn English and to haev access to all of what America offers. Yet anotehr case of the elites "speaking" for the poor yet making sure first and foremost that their own needs are serviced on the taxpayers dime.

The flying of foreign flags irks many, yet it has been well documented that recent immigrants to the US join the US armed forces at a far greater rate than incumbent Americans. This seeming contradiction requires due diligence to separate out the truly disloyal (which are usually few) from the immigrants which we should be very proud of (many of whom are more loyal to the US than many natives).

How about the disloyal? There are a few simpler solutions. One, is to deny automatic citizenship to those born on US soil. This would greatly disincentivize the behavior of crossing the border to have babies. Two would be to require first generation immigrants to serve the public interest in some capacity (France has a version of this). Three, would be to permanently deport all those in violation of certain US laws (like a felony). Four would be to remove certain rights and privileges of those found guilty of subversive activities against fellow citizens.

Obviously, each must be well throught out, but the point is to take a topic that is politically and perhaps religiously charged and find a set of policy actions that addresses underlying reasons for angst while cracking down on the criminal actions taken by such people. The combination should result in hate groups either becoming toothless or re-entering society having received a proper redress of their angst.

Originally Posted by boisefan88

Much suggestion is this: there are likely more than a few dozen lurking and hiding about. This type of racism isn't easily erased, and tends to bleed from generation to generation (in other words, racism is learned). The political and ideological atmosphere of Northern Idaho tends to attract and foster such attitudes (note I didn't say create). The atmosphere is such that although such racism is publicly scorned, it is still inviting to those types for reasons I (and the article) articulated previously.

You know, racist views need to be aired. Burying deep in the psyche is not a great long-term solution. This goes to language as well. In America, we have lost the ability to talk to one another on issues of race. Political correctness has triumphed over rational discourse and commitment to mutual respect and understanding. There should be no ban on hate speech. If a coward is willing to say the "N" word, then let him pay the price via getting his a$$ get whupped, losing his job as to sullying the image of his company, etc. And yes, let the pain of racism be felt in every heart. IF we do no such thing, then we will be tolerating its clandestine existence under "don;t say, don;t tell." A hypocritical life.

Once out in the open, racism loses its power as the ignorance and self-loathing that it reflects can be mocked and put in place. As long as punish crimes and not ideas, we would be better off allowing even the most outrageous views be heard.

I think Northern Idaho does not attract racists per se, but it does approach racists in a more hands-off, libertarian manner. The last thing we need is to make NID or allow others to make NID an ideological battleground, when the more sensible option is to let the people have their say and agree to disagree. This approach keeps the numbers of participants low and forces the rest of us to involve ourselves with where we stand (instead of sweeping things under the rug and inviting the Feds to do our dirty work).

Originally Posted by boisefan88

... there exists a body of scholarship and organizations up there devoted to the study of these issues, and that the debate should continue.

Absolutely. Research, analysis and reflection should always be welcomed.

Originally Posted by boisefan88

At this point the discussion becomes focused on larger issues such as local identity and regionalism that exceed the scope of what we're talking about here. I certainly understand this argument and the pressures of growth and change.

One might argue that Northern Idaho should be allowed to retain its legacy and political/ideological atmosphere without threat of change or cries of intolerance. Others will simply see it as backwoods and intolerant, and may want to change it. Again, a larger issue.

I think we in NID need to be the ones making those decisions. Not those in Boise, regional types, Feds, or tourists. Outsiders will distill "what is NID" in a very skewed and anecdotal manner. They will cry that we are a community that tolerates racism, when in fact we have made our opposition clear through dialogue while retaining our principles of freedom.

New Yorkers, et al will ALWAYS see 95% of America has "backwards and intolerant," hypocrites that they are. In fact, many of us, while cringing that the occasional yahoo, would admit that this has also helped preserve the "good aspects of backwardness," such as two great pristine lakes, abundant fishing and hunting, low population density, good neighborliness, freedom from daily government intrusion, etc.

I can only speak for myself. I did not come to NID to change it, but to change myself and to try to carve out a life for my kids that harkens back to a time when they could develop on their own without need to be herded like automotonic sheep. If my approach and our involvement in family rubs off on others, I will be glad...just like I am glad to have the perspectives and lifestyles of others influencing my own. But it is a whole other matter to have folks coming in and saying "You should do X, Y, Z to become a better place and I will spend your money to help you do that." Yikes. No thanks.

Originally Posted by boisefan88

I do find it interesting, and I say this without judgment, that the article stated Northern Idaho is a significant destination for retired cops (and others) looking to get away from diversity. I've certainly seen examples of that perspective (not necessarily cops) on this board, and heard about it in real life.

LOL! Say there are 100 retired cops in the area-. Population of the three northern counties is about 200,000, or five hundredths of one percent, i.e. 0.05%. The number of retired grandparents, retired teachers, and retired sportsmen dwarf the numbers of the retired cops. So let's keep things in perspective.

But I would imagine that after a career of dealing with society's ills, irresponsibilities, and selfishness, policemen and women would consider NID ever more attractive as a refuge, place to decompress, and a place to attend to Self and spouse & kids in ways that were not so easy to do so while on the payroll. The racial demographics need not come into the picture. After all, I do not think that Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and West Virginia, the Whitest states in the Union, are havens for retired cops!

The diversity they might be seeking is a restoration of balance, an allocation of mind and body to those aspects of life that had to be swept under the rug. After all, there are far more retired cops fishing, golfing, cooking on the grill, and skiing up here that riding on trucks or typing out racist newsletters.

S.

[IDCorry]

Go to the Southern Poverty Law Center's website, which indexes all the hate groups in the us. Note Idaho's 4 groups compared to California's 80+ hate groups. Don't tell me that Idaho is worse than anywhere else. I lived in Northern California for five years and encountered several instances of unabashed racism. A holocaust denier even came to speak at my college. We have a wonderfully diverse community, even an African American museum and Holocaust Memorial.

[Sandpointian]

Yes, and let's not forget that the

Aryan Nations
-------------
Richard Butler, Founder, b. Denver, raised in Los Angeles
Robert Miles, Michigan

The 11th Hour Remnant Messenger
---------------------------------
Vincent Bertollini and Carl Story, both came to Sandpoint from Silicon Valley
* Story was also a traitor who pleaded guilty and was convicted for selling missile guidance technology to the Soviets when the threat was real. Some patriot...

America's Promise Ministries
---------------------------
David Barley, moved from Scottsdale Arizona to Sandpoint


See the pattern? The sh*t gets stirred from outsiders who see NID not as a land of promise but The Promised Land.

S.

[Fisherman 100]

Here is the truth about most retired cops. We just want to retire from the type of people who like to shoot at you. We want to distance ourselves from people who want to kill us. We are tired of people who lie, steal and abuse others.

Notice I said people not race. Color has nothing to do with it. Just because a white does not like rap music or a black does not like Country Western does not mean they are racist. I moved to the Sandpoint area a month ago. Guess what. People look you in the eye when they speak to you with genuine warmth.

I would like to commend Steve's Imports, the folks at John Deere, and Sandpoint Marine and Motorsports. Also Coldwell Banker, Home Depot, and too many more to mention here.

[Trace_Rinaldi]

Originally Posted by Fisherman 100

Here is the truth about most retired cops. We just want to retire from the type of people who like to shoot at you. We want to distance ourselves from people who want to kill us. We are tired of people who lie, steal and abuse others.

Notice I said people not race. Color has nothing to do with it. Just because a white does not like rap music or a black does not like Country Western does not mean they are racist. I moved to the Sandpoint area a month ago. Guess what. People look you in the eye when they speak to you with genuine warmth.

I would like to commend Steve's Imports, the folks at John Deere, and Sandpoint Marine and Motorsports. Also Coldwell Banker, Home Depot, and too many more to mention here.

Imagine wanting to live where people dont want to kill you..... Thats just insane hate speach.....

[Fisherman 100]

Went on a hike today. People waved and said Hi. They were not wearing SS regalia or goose stepping.
Did not see any Panzer or Tiger Tanks in the forest. Guess the Aryan Nation must have left. Will keep patrolling the bike paths and let you know if I see Skinhead Activity.

[boisefan88]

I think the last few posts are just a bit disingenuous.

[DESERTRYDER]

Yea but it was great reading