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Old 07-22-2011, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,521,655 times
Reputation: 3044

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Would you believe a report on the mating habits of birds, if the “study” was conducted by a group that had never observed bird behavior, and never had access to the work of others who had? Is it possible to determine the fatality rate associated with drunk driving, if no records are maintained on auto accidents? Well, the same applies to our federal government and their numerous “reports” relating to illegal immigration.

No one of reasonable intelligence would purchase a home based on a report by a housing inspector who had never seen the house, let alone, inspected it, even if the inspector had a stellar reputation. But, this is essentially the blind faith approach by those who believe in the veracity of government reports, simply because they’re produced by the government. In other words, if the government says it, it MUST be true. No questions asked.

Given that the CBO relies on data from the IRS, SSA, Census, and USCIS to compile reports on the fiscal contributions of illegal immigration, costs incurred by taxpayers, etc; and, considering the fact that NONE of these agencies maintain data on illegal aliens, common sense dictates their reports cannot possibly be credible.


Census Bureau

As we all know, each decade the Census Bureau compiles data on the population of the United States based on questionnaire responses. Extrapolated from said data is the “estimate” of the number of our illegal alien population. According to the Census Bureau, we currently have 10.8 – 12 million illegal aliens residing in this country. But, there’s a HUGE problem -- the questionnaire does not include immigration status. So, how on earth does the Census Bureau make that determination with any level of certainty? Answer: THEY CAN’T.

Government agencies and other organizations rely on data from the Census Bureau to produce reports on illegal immigration. But, again, how can the data be accurate without having a reliable method to ascertain those numbers? Or, do they simply analyze the number of “non-citizen” respondents, and speculate on the percentage that “must” be here illegally? Who knows? But, this is certain: Without including immigration status on their questionnaire, there is no possible way they could even begin to determine the number of illegal aliens in this country.


Social Security Administration

Given that employers only submit W-2 information to the SSA (name, SSN, wages, withholdings), which, mind you, does not include immigration status, how can the SSA compile reports enumerating illegal alien FICA/Medicare contributions? Answer: THEY CAN’T. At best, they can “assume” that contributions associated with every invalid SSN results from illegal employment. However, how many of those “fake” numbers are actually transpositions or other data entry errors by payroll departments or HR? Without investigating discrepancies, it is impossible to make that determination.


Internal Revenue Service

Employers transmit identical W-2 files to the IRS as those submitted to SSA. Again, immigration status is not included. Therefore, there is no possible method to determine an employees’ illegal immigration status. Nor is there a line item on tax returns for wages, withholdings, deductions, or credits to identify a filers’ illegal presence in this country. So, again, how does the IRS determine the amount of federal taxes withheld from the wages of illegal aliens? Answer: THEY CAN’T.


United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)

What a colossal joke. This government agency can’t even monitor our visa program. Ergo, an “estimated” 40% of illegal aliens are visa overstays. Of course, the actual number is unknown. After all, they cannot possibly determine the number of visa overstays if they don’t even know their whereabouts, or if they have actually left the country. So, if they don’t know the status of millions of foreigners who are entered in their database, how on earth can they know the status of millions who entered illegally? Answer: THEY CAN’T.


Unfortunately, all of the aforementioned agencies produce reports on illegal immigration, which, in turn, are used by Pew, La Raza, and other individuals and organizations who tout the “contributions” of illegal aliens. Clearly, none of these agencies have even quasi-accurate data on the illegal alien population. Therefore, how can anyone with even marginal intelligence consider their data credible? I can only surmise that those who believe the government reports, notwithstanding their glaring lack of verifiable data, do so, simply because it supports their agenda.

 
Old 07-22-2011, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,299 posts, read 4,835,071 times
Reputation: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Would you believe a report on the mating habits of birds, if the “study” was conducted by a group that had never observed bird behavior, and never had access to the work of others who had? Is it possible to determine the fatality rate associated with drunk driving, if no records are maintained on auto accidents? Well, the same applies to our federal government and their numerous “reports” relating to illegal immigration.

No one of reasonable intelligence would purchase a home based on a report by a housing inspector who had never seen the house, let alone, inspected it, even if the inspector had a stellar reputation. But, this is essentially the blind faith approach by those who believe in the veracity of government reports, simply because they’re produced by the government. In other words, if the government says it, it MUST be true. No questions asked.

Given that the CBO relies on data from the IRS, SSA, Census, and USCIS to compile reports on the fiscal contributions of illegal immigration, costs incurred by taxpayers, etc; and, considering the fact that NONE of these agencies maintain data on illegal aliens, common sense dictates their reports cannot possibly be credible.


Census Bureau

As we all know, each decade the Census Bureau compiles data on the population of the United States based on questionnaire responses. Extrapolated from said data is the “estimate” of the number of our illegal alien population. According to the Census Bureau, we currently have 10.8 – 12 million illegal aliens residing in this country. But, there’s a HUGE problem -- the questionnaire does not include immigration status. So, how on earth does the Census Bureau make that determination with any level of certainty? Answer: THEY CAN’T.

Government agencies and other organizations rely on data from the Census Bureau to produce reports on illegal immigration. But, again, how can the data be accurate without having a reliable method to ascertain those numbers? Or, do they simply analyze the number of “non-citizen” respondents, and speculate on the percentage that “must” be here illegally? Who knows? But, this is certain: Without including immigration status on their questionnaire, there is no possible way they could even begin to determine the number of illegal aliens in this country.


Social Security Administration

Given that employers only submit W-2 information to the SSA (name, SSN, wages, withholdings), which, mind you, does not include immigration status, how can the SSA compile reports enumerating illegal alien FICA/Medicare contributions? Answer: THEY CAN’T. At best, they can “assume” that contributions associated with every invalid SSN results from illegal employment. However, how many of those “fake” numbers are actually transpositions or other data entry errors by payroll departments or HR? Without investigating discrepancies, it is impossible to make that determination.


Internal Revenue Service

Employers transmit identical W-2 files to the IRS as those submitted to SSA. Again, immigration status is not included. Therefore, there is no possible method to determine an employees’ illegal immigration status. Nor is there a line item on tax returns for wages, withholdings, deductions, or credits to identify a filers’ illegal presence in this country. So, again, how does the IRS determine the amount of federal taxes withheld from the wages of illegal aliens? Answer: THEY CAN’T.


United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)

What a colossal joke. This government agency can’t even monitor our visa program. Ergo, an “estimated” 40% of illegal aliens are visa overstays. Of course, the actual number is unknown. After all, they cannot possibly determine the number of visa overstays if they don’t even know their whereabouts, or if they have actually left the country. So, if they don’t know the status of millions of foreigners who are entered in their database, how on earth can they know the status of millions who entered illegally? Answer: THEY CAN’T.


Unfortunately, all of the aforementioned agencies produce reports on illegal immigration, which, in turn, are used by Pew, La Raza, and other individuals and organizations who tout the “contributions” of illegal aliens. Clearly, none of these agencies have even quasi-accurate data on the illegal alien population. Therefore, how can anyone with even marginal intelligence consider their data credible? I can only surmise that those who believe the government reports, notwithstanding their glaring lack of verifiable data, do so, simply because it supports their agenda.
This document is by your origins? The DHS report on illegal immigration is a worthwhile read, even if you don't agree with the data. It states how they arrive at the numbers.
 
Old 07-22-2011, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,521,655 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
This document is by your origins? The DHS report on illegal immigration is a worthwhile read, even if you don't agree with the data. It states how they arrive at the numbers.
DHS? Surely you jest.

The DHS is an even bigger joke than the USCIS.
 
Old 07-22-2011, 03:47 PM
 
15,913 posts, read 20,152,718 times
Reputation: 7693
Hey Benicar, as far as the government doing all the gathering and reporting on illegal aliens....

Remember this old phrase?

NEVER BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU

Couldn't possibly be used in the illegal alien reporting done by the government now could it?
 
Old 07-22-2011, 08:19 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,861,574 times
Reputation: 1547
You are so right Benicar. Wish I could rep you again.
 
Old 07-22-2011, 09:12 PM
 
20 posts, read 11,832 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
No one of reasonable intelligence would purchase a home based on a report by a housing inspector who had never seen the house, let alone, inspected it, even if the inspector had a stellar reputation. But, this is essentially the blind faith approach by those who believe in the veracity of government reports, simply because they’re produced by the government. In other words, if the government says it, it MUST be true. No questions asked.
I'm not sure you want to apply this to other aspects of your reasoning. For instance, immigration quotas. Who would know better what person and/or nationality a person would want to hire, the business itself or the government who you have no faith in to predict anything? The business obviously. So if a company wants to hire a Mexican dishwasher, or a PHD student they should be able to and it shouldn't be held to any kind of quota that this ineffective and inefficient government would fail to predict accurately.
 
Old 07-23-2011, 02:10 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,551,408 times
Reputation: 22474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakinupallnight View Post
I'm not sure you want to apply this to other aspects of your reasoning. For instance, immigration quotas. Who would know better what person and/or nationality a person would want to hire, the business itself or the government who you have no faith in to predict anything? The business obviously. So if a company wants to hire a Mexican dishwasher, or a PHD student they should be able to and it shouldn't be held to any kind of quota that this ineffective and inefficient government would fail to predict accurately.
That kind of libertarian reasoning would only work if the same illegals didn't expect free health care provided to them by the overtaxed American people, who actually had to support their rather large families on their own without WIC and food stamps and subsidized housing.

The reason it makes more sense to the greedy employers to bring in boxcar loads of illegals is because this labor is being subsidized by the taxpayers.

End all welfare handouts, stop providing free maternity hospital care to these illegals, stop giving free education for the many children they bring over and give birth to, no more safety nets for them or for the unemployed Americans who would then have to compete for those $5 an hour jobs.

Or if you really cannot bring yourself to hire Americans, then you have the choice to relocate your business to a third world country. You should not have the right to the American consumer when your business will not hire Americans.
 
Old 07-23-2011, 02:30 AM
 
20 posts, read 11,832 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
That kind of libertarian reasoning would only work if the same illegals didn't expect free health care provided to them by the overtaxed American people, who actually had to support their rather large families on their own without WIC and food stamps and subsidized housing.

The reason it makes more sense to the greedy employers to bring in boxcar loads of illegals is because this labor is being subsidized by the taxpayers.

End all welfare handouts, stop providing free maternity hospital care to these illegals, stop giving free education for the many children they bring over and give birth to, no more safety nets for them or for the unemployed Americans who would then have to compete for those $5 an hour jobs.

Or if you really cannot bring yourself to hire Americans, then you have the choice to relocate your business to a third world country. You should not have the right to the American consumer when your business will not hire Americans.
This isn't libertarian thinking, this is extending Benicar's thought process out to a logical conclusion. It shows a logical inconsistency in her thinking that she thinks that surveys an studies can't possibly be accurate by the government , but an perfectly attuned measurement of the amount of foreign workers that business want and should hire is.
 
Old 07-23-2011, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,521,655 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
Hey Benicar, as far as the government doing all the gathering and reporting on illegal aliens....

Remember this old phrase?

NEVER BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU

Couldn't possibly be used in the illegal alien reporting done by the government now could it?
Exactly! Clearly, they maintain zero data on illegal immigration, by design. Their greedy corporate masters have instructed them to downplay this scourge, and the naive fall for it hook, line, and sinker. Of course, as long as the "data" supports their stance on illegal immigration, pro-illegals don’t care if the reports are bogus.

Funny, the government employs accountants to track other expenditures, but for obvious reasons, they don’t want taxpayers to know the true fiscal magnitude of this illegal invasion. As taxpayers, we have a right to an accurate accounting of the costs incurred to support people who are in our country illegally. But, the government would then have to admit that illegal immigration is a major factor contributing to our budget deficits. And, we certainly can’t have that.
 
Old 07-23-2011, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,521,655 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakinupallnight View Post
I'm not sure you want to apply this to other aspects of your reasoning. For instance, immigration quotas. Who would know better what person and/or nationality a person would want to hire, the business itself or the government who you have no faith in to predict anything? The business obviously. So if a company wants to hire a Mexican dishwasher, or a PHD student they should be able to and it shouldn't be held to any kind of quota that this ineffective and inefficient government would fail to predict accurately.
We are not discussing visa quotas, which, by the way, is a LEGAL immigration issue. We are discussing bogus reporting by the government regarding illegal immigration. Furthermore, work visas are intended to assist employers who “claim” they are unable to find enough workers in this country to fill specific positions. I say claim, because frequently that is just a ruse to not hire a qualified citizen or legal resident due to their preference for cheap labor.

But, to answer your off-topic question, no, businesses should not have the right to recruit foreign labor, cheap or otherwise, while we have a glut of qualified, and unemployed workers. Or, do you not realize we have record unemployment?

Regardless, please do not hijack this thread. If you want to discuss our quota system, start a thread. If you have nothing to contribute to this topic, please move along.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakinupallnight View Post
This isn't libertarian thinking, this is extending Benicar's thought process out to a logical conclusion. It shows a logical inconsistency in her thinking that she thinks that surveys an studies can't possibly be accurate by the government , but an perfectly attuned measurement of the amount of foreign workers that business want and should hire is.
No, this is deflection and thread derailment.

BTW, welcome back.
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