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Old 10-05-2007, 09:16 AM
 
17,292 posts, read 27,808,701 times
Reputation: 8667

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I've heard many people say that immigration laws shouldn't exist at all. That we should open our "hearts, land, and tax dollars" to every poor and starving person in the world.

I challenge those people to watch and comment on the following video, "Population gumballs":


YouTube - • Immigration Gumballs •


Let's debate the REAL problems with "open immigration":

* overcrowding
* strain on social services
* lack of immigration laws means lack of say in keeping foreign criminals out of the country (we have enough of our own, thank you).
* degredation of neighborhoods and standard of living
* destruction of the middle class
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Old 10-05-2007, 09:54 AM
 
8,975 posts, read 15,737,598 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
I've heard many people say that immigration laws shouldn't exist at all. That we should open our "hearts, land, and tax dollars" to every poor and starving person in the world.

I challenge those people to watch and comment on the following video, "Population gumballs":


YouTube - • Immigration Gumballs •


Let's debate the REAL problems with "open immigration":

* overcrowding
* strain on social services
* lack of immigration laws means lack of say in keeping foreign criminals out of the country (we have enough of our own, thank you).
* degredation of neighborhoods and standard of living
* destruction of the middle class
Your first four points are rather obvious--there's little more to say on this.
Your last point, though, often escapes many people....and this is tremendously important. The middle class is often taken for granted by modern-day Americans. But it is a rather recent phenomena, and still a rarity in most of the world, including Mexico.

The middle class has been defined loosely as those people "too poor to quit working, but too rich to become angry and desperate"....In other words, a large middle class ensures that a population will be relatively optimistic, and that class envy, hatred, and resentments will be few. Life is "worth living" for the middle class, who also serve as a reminder to the poor that they, too, could reasonably aspire to such a life, with a little luck and hard work.

Contrast our huge middle class (about 85% traditionally) with the Mexican middle class, which is arguably only around 10% or so. The anger and hopelessness of Mexico's poor is only one symptom. If not for the "safety valve" of having the nearby US as a "dumping ground", Mexico would undoubtedly be facing some very serious social problems--up to and including violent revolution.

The situation here is looking grim. Offshoring and downsizing are taking their toll, and illegal immigration is exacerbating the destruction of the middle class in America. It's smaller now than it once was. I find it frightening that Wal-Mart is the BIGGEST EMPLOYER in many states. Say what you want, but a job at Wal-Mart simply doesn't allow for a middle class lifestyle.

Take away the middle class, and life, of course, will still go on. But it will be a leaner, meaner, rougher existence, both for the angry poor, and the "hated" rich hiding in their gated communities. There's really no significant difference between Arizona and Sonora, or between Southern California and Baja California. The land, the flora and fauna, and even many of the ethnic groups are largely similar. The big difference in these "pairs" of places is the "system". On one side is a repressive third-world, abusive system, and just across the "line" is a society with a big middle class. It's easy to see where life is "better" for most people-but not so easy to see how quickly this could all be lost, if we don't do something about it, and soon.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,963 posts, read 17,371,872 times
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I have work today, but I'll watch it and give you some feedback later.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:03 AM
 
8,975 posts, read 15,737,598 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50Thunderdart View Post
I have work today, but I'll watch it and give you some feedback later.
Have a good day at work---hope you're earning a "middle-class" income...
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,963 posts, read 17,371,872 times
Reputation: 6181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Have a good day at work---hope you're earning a "middle-class" income...
Oh I am fine, since I work with nothing but H1-B's, my company is able to be competitive and high-tech.


Back on topic...have a good day.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:21 AM
 
537 posts, read 382,172 times
Reputation: 182
Meaning that his company dislikes Americans enough to go and hire immigrants to do the job cheaper instead of training competent Americans to do the same jobs.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
3,589 posts, read 3,655,412 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veiled Prophet View Post
Meaning that his company dislikes Americans enough to go and hire immigrants to do the job cheaper instead of training competent Americans to do the same jobs.
Pretty much.
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
13,973 posts, read 25,462,484 times
Reputation: 6890
This thread is an excellent example of why I never post in the immigration discussion area. I don't see much of a debate here, more of a beating. It is hard to fathom any legitimate position in support of illegals. They may bring some marginal economic benefit, but at too great a cost, and the cost may actually exceed the benefit. Even the "experts" can't really determine if they are more of an overall cost or benefit economically.

Obviously, the only folks who benefit are those who can hire these folks at much lower wages than they would pay to actual citizens, and this is offset by the loss of job opportunities and lower wages for work overall. Then you add the peripheral cost such as criminals, medical care and social services, and the debate looks like a slaughter to me.

I believe the vast majority of these folks are diligent and hard working, but they need to only be able to come here through a specifically measured (in numbers) and legal process, assuring us that we reduce the number of problem folks we bring in.

So in summary, I don't see any reasonable debate point in support of illegals allowed to continue to work in this country, and favor fining employers significantly for hiring them. Dry up the employment source, and the motivation will largely disappear. And, of course, allowing their kids born in the US to be citizens makes no sense either.
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:13 AM
 
537 posts, read 382,172 times
Reputation: 182
agreed!!!!
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Savannah GA/Lk Hopatcong NJ
13,183 posts, read 26,908,559 times
Reputation: 11395
Agreed as well
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